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* The Books That Founded D&D - 14 messages, 11 authors
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Books That Founded D&D
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books/t/8ba57c69243a3499?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 14 ==
Date: Wed, Nov 25 2009 11:50 pm
From: Juho Julkunen
In article <53d657e0-4569-46a5-ada8-a38ff577ff44
@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, Mark Reichert
(Mark_Reichert@hotmail.com) says...
> On Nov 23, 11:14 pm, Juho Julkunen <giaot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > In article <0d6677c7-878d-47ff-9fe7-fb02af56e1d0@
> > 33g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>, Mark Reichert (Mark_Reich...@hotmail.com)
> >
> > > What's with the Diamond hate these days? I remember the book getting
> > > a better reception here when it came out.
> >
> > People are finally beginning to wise up?
>
> It would be nice to have some evidence to go with that, both in the
> "wising up"
That's merely optimism on my part.
> and what failures of the book would cause them to do so.
I guess the big one would be Diamond proposing a grand unified theory
of human history while being mostly ignorant on the subject. The list
of stuff he gets wrong is extensive. He cherrypicks his evidence. I
won't claim he's being deliberately dishonest; he may just not know
better.
It is not suprising he should get things wrong. He is, after all,
writing on a number of subjects he is not an expert on. What is
surprising is that so many people find his armchair philosophy
compelling.
It's possibly because history, sociology and anhtropology are soft
sciences. If he'd written a book proposing TOE while demonstrating
similar command of the field of physics, no one but cranks would have
given him the time of day.
Or maybe it's because of his reassuring message that no people are
inferior to others. And the slightly disturbing message that there's no
reason to feel too guilty about imperialism: that wasn't really our
fault; just the ineviteble result of geographical determinism.
--
Juho Julkunen
== 2 of 14 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 26 2009 4:28 am
From: "Arindam Banerjee"
"Arindam Banerjee" <adda1234@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:6plPm.57591$ze1.20854@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Marko Amnell" <marko.amnell@kolumbus.fi> wrote in message
> news:7n0e7dF3jn808U1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> "Juho Julkunen" <giaotanj@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> MPG.25751ee94da6b92f989819@news.kolumbus.fi...
>>> In article <7n05k1F3juaajU1@mid.individual.net>, Marko Amnell
>>> (marko.amnell@kolumbus.fi) says...
>>>>
>>>> "David Johnston" <david@block.net> wrote in message
>>>> 42mlg5hgafqibgnm9klgj4qn6plul3sbrg@4ax.com...
>>>> > On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:42:42 +0200, "Marko Amnell"
>>>> > <marko.amnell@kolumbus.fi> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >>"Endymion9" <endymion91@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>> >>iL2dnWa7dtAYbpTWnZ2dnUVZ_oSdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>> >>> "Patok" <crazy.div.patok@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> >>> news:he83co$arv$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>> >>>> Endymion9 wrote:
>>>> >>>>> I had never heard of Fritz Leiber of Fahryd and the Grey Mouser
>>>> >>>>> until
>>>> >>>>> I
>>>> >>>>> began playing D&D and heard that those books were an influence.
>>>> >>>>> Immediately went out and read the entire series and loved them.
>>>> >>>>> Always
>>>> >>>>> grateful to D&D for that.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Thanks to you and Mike! Leiber was the only one I had never
>>>> >>>> heard
>>>> >>>> of,
>>>> >>>> and had not tried to read. I'll give him a try, now.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Fafhryd and the Grey Mouser are the anti-Conan. I had just read
>>>> >>> several
>>>> >>> of Robert E. Howard's books (which I loved) before reading Lieber.
>>>> >>> Whereas Conan can beat 40 men with swords all by himself, Fafyhrd
>>>> >>> or the
>>>> >>> Mouser can't beat two adequate swordsmen by themselves. That and
>>>> >>> Lieber's
>>>> >>> humor are the big differences in those books, which as I said, I
>>>> >>> love
>>>> >>> both
>>>> >>> kinds. Don't prefer one over the other.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>REH is actually more realistic.
>>>> >
>>>> > No, he really isn't.
>>>> >
>>>> > A master swordsman can
>>>> >>defeat many less skilled opponents in combat. To quote
>>>> >>Miyamoto Musashi in _The Book of Five Rings_:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>"If he attains the virtue of the long sword, one man can beat
>>>> >>ten men.
>>>> >
>>>> > If he's wearing armour and the ten men are untrained peasants.
>>>> > Otherwise not a bloody hope.
>>>>
>>>> Miyamoto Musashi was one of the greatest swordsmen of
>>>> all times. On what basis do you question his opinion?
>>>> You've probably never even held a real sword in your
>>>> hands. Your experience with combat is limited to
>>>> rolling twenty-sided dice.
>>>>
>>>> Also, the Roman Legions regularly defeated enemy armies
>>>> of warriors that were several times larger, winning due
>>>> to superior discipline and training.
>>>
>>> They often took a beating, too. But it is utterly irrelevant since
>>> they were fighting in organized units rather than singly.
>>
>> On the contrary, it is completely relevant because
>> the full quote I gave (before it was snipped out of
>> recognition) reads:
>>
>> "If he attains the virtue of the long sword, one man can beat
>> ten men. Just as one man can beat ten, so a hundred men can
>> beat a thousand, and a thousand can beat ten thousand."
>> http://www.bookoffiverings.com/EarthBook.htm
>
> "My good blade carves the casques of men,
> My tough lance thrusteth sure.
> My strength is as the strength of ten
> Because my heart is pure."
>
>>
>> Musashi wishes to draw certain analogies between single
>> combat and military strategy and tactics.
Some musings on this, based upon the battle in Kurukshetra as described in
the Mahabharata...
The battle between the Kauravas and Pandavas was a "dharmayuddha" or battle
according to righteous conduct. This was similar to knightly encounters,
when honour was the primry issue.
In dharmayuddha the outcome of battle was left to the Gods to decide. The
participants had to do their best, according to custom and were absolutely
bound by honour. For instance, the enemy that ran away, or surrendered,
could not be killed.
Probably the most famous incident there was the death of Abhimanyu, the son
of Arjuna.
Dronacharya, the Kaurava general, had constructed the chakra-vyuha, or
circular formation. This was the most feared formation, and why it was so I
would like to talk about.
As we know from Cannae, usually the last thing a formation wants is
envelopment by the enemy - the enemy attacking it from all sides at once
that is. But, the chakravyuha invites it. It is a circular formation,
which could be thin, with reserves in the centre with the general right
inside issuing commands. The chakravyuha can move in any direction as a
whole, and upon engagement rotates in a clockwise manner, just like the
chakra, thus adding an angular component to the attack.
Normal frontal manoevers - the press of battle - of the kind commonly used
in ancient and even medieval Europe, may well be expected to pierce the
line. But that is just what could be disastrous. As the line is pierced,
the intruders are flanked and then cut off. from the main body They are
enveloped by the reserves within the chakra, and cut down.
To get into the chakra, with a large force that would break it up, was the
task of a skilled warrior. Arjuna could do this, and also his son
Abhimanyu. But Arjuna also knew the art of getting out of the chakra, which
Abhimanyu did not know.
Since Arjuna wasn't there - he had gone off to fight a challenge with
suicidal warriors - Abhimanyu was asked to lead the charge. It so happened
that he was the only one to break into the chakra - the others were outed.
Abhimanyu fought and beat off the greatest warriors of the Kaurava camp. At
one time he was engaged by seven of their best archers. But he was so fast,
he held his own against all of them, to their wonderment. When he ran out
of weapons, he was asked to surrender but he refused. In the end, he defied
his enemies with a chariot wheel. Then one of the Kaurava princes got into
a close engagement with him, and killed him.
To many Indians, the death of Abhimanyu was symbolic of the fall of Arya
(noble) conduct. Increasingly, wickedness or lack of principle became
manifested. It was no longer a dharmayuddha. Dronacharya was killed when
he gave up his arms and was about to die in a yogic manner, after being told
a lie by none less than Yudhishthira (the embodiment of truth). Karna was
killed when he was helpless. Duryodhana was mortally hurt by a blow given
below the belt. Infuriated, Ashwatthama the son of Dronacharya made a night
attack upon the sleeping enemy and killed very many of them. And this was
the start of this KaliYuga or the present period when humans are only 25%
good.
Arjuna and Ashwatthama (the Kshatriya and the Brahmin) met in battle. Their
weapons would destroy the world, so the Gods interfered. Their Divine
Wisdom was that Ashwatthama, the beloved son of Dronacharya, would never
die. But he had to give up his power, which lay in a strange gem embedded in
his head. And Lord Krishna, using all his powers, brought back Parikshit,
the son of Abhimanyu, back to life. Ashwatthama had uttered a spell, and a
blade of grass had penetrated the womb of Abhimanyu's widow, killing his
unborn son. Parikshit would become the ancestor of all the kings of India.
However, the ancient glory was never rekindled. Certainly the concept of
dharmayuddha is totally gone, today.
Cheers,
Arindam Banerjee.
== 3 of 14 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 26 2009 8:15 am
From: David Johnston
On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:50:17 +0200, Juho Julkunen
<giaotanj@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <53d657e0-4569-46a5-ada8-a38ff577ff44
>@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, Mark Reichert
>(Mark_Reichert@hotmail.com) says...
>> On Nov 23, 11:14 pm, Juho Julkunen <giaot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > In article <0d6677c7-878d-47ff-9fe7-fb02af56e1d0@
>> > 33g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>, Mark Reichert (Mark_Reich...@hotmail.com)
>
>> >
>> > > What's with the Diamond hate these days? I remember the book getting
>> > > a better reception here when it came out.
>> >
>> > People are finally beginning to wise up?
>>
>> It would be nice to have some evidence to go with that, both in the
>> "wising up"
>
>That's merely optimism on my part.
>
>> and what failures of the book would cause them to do so.
>
>I guess the big one would be Diamond proposing a grand unified theory
>of human history while being mostly ignorant on the subject. The list
>of stuff he gets wrong is extensive.
Where can I find this list?
== 4 of 14 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 26 2009 9:58 am
From: erilar
In article <7n6156F3j283dU1@mid.individual.net>,
"John F. Eldredge" <john@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
> I have read that obsidian and flint will both fracture into edges sharper
> than you can grind on a steel knife. On the other hand, a steel knife is
> unlikely to shatter if you drop it.
But how many surfaces are hard enough to break it? Not all of them.
--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist
http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo
== 5 of 14 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 26 2009 10:12 am
From: "Marko Amnell"
"Arindam Banerjee" <adda1234@bigpond.com> wrote in message
9wuPm.57777$ze1.17990@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> As we know from Cannae, usually the last thing a formation wants is
> envelopment by the enemy - the enemy attacking it from all sides at once
> that is. But, the chakravyuha invites it. It is a circular formation,
> which could be thin, with reserves in the centre with the general right
> inside issuing commands. The chakravyuha can move in any direction as a
> whole, and upon engagement rotates in a clockwise manner, just like the
> chakra, thus adding an angular component to the attack.
>
> Normal frontal manoevers - the press of battle - of the kind commonly used
> in ancient and even medieval Europe, may well be expected to pierce the
> line. But that is just what could be disastrous. As the line is pierced,
> the intruders are flanked and then cut off. from the main body They are
> enveloped by the reserves within the chakra, and cut down.
Avoiding encirclement is certainly the usual rule, but there are other
formations that fight perfectly well when facing enemies from all
sides, such as the Roman tortoise http://tinyurl.com/yzbqm2c
or British infantry squares, which were so successful against
French cavalry at Waterloo. http://tinyurl.com/yz4wers
Infantry squares have a long history:
"The formation was described by Plutarch and used by the Romans,
and was developed from an earlier circular formation. In particular,
a large infantry square was utilized by the Roman legions at the Battle
of Carrhae against Parthia, whose armies contained a large
proportion of cavalry.
"The Han Empire's mounted infantry forces effectively utilized
tactics involving highly mobile infantry square formations in
conjunction with light cavalry in their many engagements
against the primarily cavalry Xiongnu nomad armies in the 1st
century CE. Infantry squares were used in the siege of the nomads'
mountain settlements near the Gobi region, where Han
forces repelled nomad lancer attacks.
"The square was revived in the 14th century as the schiltron,
and later appeared as the pike square or tercio, and was widely
used in the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry_square
It should be noted that, of course, the Romans were
defeated at Carrhae because their infantry square could
not protect their infantry from the missile attacks of the
Parthian mounted archers.
Another similar formation that is less well known was the
organisation of columns on all sides of a protected convoy by
Colonel Négrier in the late 19th century in Algeria. Here is
a quote from _Wars of Empire_ by Douglas Porch (p. 119):
"... Négrier subsequently reorganized his convoy defence as
a 'mobile echelon' of mule-mounted Foreign Legionnaires
and artillery that could swing to defend against attack from
any direction, while permitting the column a more flexible
marching formation over irregular terrain."
This followed earlier successful attacks by Bou Amama on
French convoys, in which the troops protecting the convoy
were lured away by the enemy, leaving the convoy unprotected.
== 6 of 14 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 26 2009 10:24 am
From: Juho Julkunen
In article <cbatg5tq5fert7u6fm0rcfb3t0ebt67t6j@4ax.com>, David Johnston
(david@block.net) says...
> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:50:17 +0200, Juho Julkunen
> <giaotanj@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <53d657e0-4569-46a5-ada8-a38ff577ff44
> >@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, Mark Reichert
> >(Mark_Reichert@hotmail.com) says...
> >> On Nov 23, 11:14 pm, Juho Julkunen <giaot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> > In article <0d6677c7-878d-47ff-9fe7-fb02af56e1d0@
> >> > 33g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>, Mark Reichert (Mark_Reich...@hotmail.com)
> >
> >> >
> >> > > What's with the Diamond hate these days? I remember the book getting
> >> > > a better reception here when it came out.
> >> >
> >> > People are finally beginning to wise up?
> >>
> >> It would be nice to have some evidence to go with that, both in the
> >> "wising up"
> >
> >That's merely optimism on my part.
> >
> >> and what failures of the book would cause them to do so.
> >
> >I guess the big one would be Diamond proposing a grand unified theory
> >of human history while being mostly ignorant on the subject. The list
> >of stuff he gets wrong is extensive.
>
> Where can I find this list?
I don't know of any one exhaustive list. A fair range of subjects is
concerned, after all.
As for examples, any decent review will have some, including the
generally positive ones. (Ranging from "it is inevitable that Professor
Diamond uses very broad brush-strokes to fill in his argument" to
"Diamond seemed to be terribly confused about the course of 2,500 years
of Western history".)
--
Juho Julkunen
== 7 of 14 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 26 2009 11:45 am
From: Quadibloc
On Nov 26, 11:24 am, Juho Julkunen <giaot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <cbatg5tq5fert7u6fm0rcfb3t0ebt67...@4ax.com>, David Johnston
> (da...@block.net) says...
> > On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:50:17 +0200, Juho Julkunen
> > <giaot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >I guess the big one would be Diamond proposing a grand unified theory
> > >of human history while being mostly ignorant on the subject. The list
> > >of stuff he gets wrong is extensive.
>
> > Where can I find this list?
>
> I don't know of any one exhaustive list. A fair range of subjects is
> concerned, after all.
>
> As for examples, any decent review will have some, including the
> generally positive ones. (Ranging from "it is inevitable that Professor
> Diamond uses very broad brush-strokes to fill in his argument" to
> "Diamond seemed to be terribly confused about the course of 2,500 years
> of Western history".)
The part I rejected about his book was the claim that his thesis could
be expected to be successfully extended further in the direction of
establishing a more complete geographical determinism of history.
But while I reject the idea that history is *solely* determined by
geography, I think that it is indeed valid to say that the influence
of geography has tended to be neglected, and thus, while his book
needs to be taken with a grain of salt here and there, it is both a
valuable contribution and *mostly* correct.
The people who develop the most technology first are the lucky ones
that had more plant and animal products to draw on, a larger
population size to find inventors in, and so on and so forth. So we
finally have a fleshed-out and detailed explanation of European
hegemony which doesn't require a resort to the theory of superior
white brains.
One that is in harmony with the facts - rather than requiring them to
be twisted badly in the name of political correctness.
Where he goes wrong is simply in the need to make his theory all-
embracing. Sure, given the broad-level differences in opportunity,
geniuses among the Australian Aboriginies would not have had the
opportunity to make a big impact on the world. But the fact that this
genius was born in Greece instead of Rome, or that genius in England
instead of France, can still have an impact on the future as well -
and it is in falling prey to an emotional or ideological need to deny
this that he falls down.
John Savard
== 8 of 14 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 26 2009 11:56 am
From: Quadibloc
On Nov 26, 5:28 am, "Arindam Banerjee" <adda1...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> Certainly the concept of
> dharmayuddha is totally gone, today.
Yes, that's true enough.
In the Middle Ages, wars between rival fiefdoms were conducted in a
conventional and limited manner. The wars were always fought at the
appropriate time of year not to interfere with food production, and so
as not to inflict insupportable hardship on the peasantry, and while
one princedom might grow at the expense of another, the lives of the
feudal lords were safe.
From today's point of view, the exile of Napoleon, a vestige of this,
seems incredible. You started a war against our country, and in that
war, one of our citizens was killed. Right, that's first degree
murder, off to the electric chair with you.
That isn't *yet* quite how it happens in practice, but certainly
that's the rule that the popular sentiment in the United States would
favor as fair. No king or emperor is so high that he is above the law,
and the law forbids killing innocent people who are minding their own
business. Wearing funny costumes doesn't make a bit of difference.
Or, in the early history of Islam, the forces of Muhammad fought a
battle against those of a prince and were defeated; once defeated,
they were left to go their way, but it was said "until next year"...
the prince took that to be a rhetorical device, but precisely a year
later, the forces of Muhammad showed up... and thus won total victory
against an unprepared foe.
Nuclear weapons have, of course, the capability of mass destruction.
And World War II showed us how awful the consequences of defeat in a
war can be, how evil and ruthless an enemy can be.
So, yes: today, war is not a game. It is a serious business, and the
issue is to win. Because every human life is immensely valuable, and
so wars should not be started at all - thus, woe betide those who do
start them (unnecessarily for an aggressive purpose - or make it
necessary to start them for a defensive purpose).
John Savard
== 9 of 14 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 26 2009 3:54 pm
From: "John F. Eldredge"
On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 11:58:38 -0600, erilar wrote:
> In article <7n6156F3j283dU1@mid.individual.net>,
> "John F. Eldredge" <john@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
>
>> I have read that obsidian and flint will both fracture into edges
>> sharper than you can grind on a steel knife. On the other hand, a
>> steel knife is unlikely to shatter if you drop it.
>
> But how many surfaces are hard enough to break it? Not all of them.
My post was somewhat misleading. Knapping a piece of flint or obsidian
into a knife-edge involves pressing down against the surface in such a
way as to induce a series of conchoid (C-shaped) fractures. You end up
with a series of arcs, each of which has an extremely sharp edge. This
does not necessarily require a tool made of a material harder than the
flint or obsidian. You do not knap a piece of flint or obsidian by
simply dropping it. See <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knapping>.
On the other hand, if you _do_ accidentally drop such a knife onto a hard
surface, it may well fracture into a collection of fragments that aren't
a useful size or shape. Metal tools aren't as easily damaged.
--
John F. Eldredge -- john@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
== 10 of 14 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 26 2009 6:08 pm
From: Mark Reichert
On Nov 23, 11:13 pm, Juho Julkunen <giaot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <mgjmg5lhhr3di6m3k3ffo0n14ojne33...@4ax.com>, David Johnston
> (da...@block.net) says...
>
>
>
> > On 23 Nov 2009 19:18:01 GMT, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
> > <tednolan>) wrote:
>
> > >In article <heelo9$f9...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > >Mike Schilling <mscottschill...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >>David Johnston wrote:
> > >>> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:42:42 +0200, "Marko Amnell"
> > >>> <marko.amn...@kolumbus.fi> wrote:
> > >>>> A master swordsman can
> > >>>> defeat many less skilled opponents in combat. To quote
> > >>>> Miyamoto Musashi in _The Book of Five Rings_:
>
> > >>>> "If he attains the virtue of the long sword, one man can beat
> > >>>> ten men.
>
> > >>> If he's wearing armour and the ten men are untrained peasants.
>
> > >>None of whom think of sneaking up behind the swordsman and braining
> > >>him with a rock.
>
> > >IIRC, that was one of the parts of _Guns Germs & Steel_ that seemed least
> > >convincing -- that steel made a handful of Spaniards *so* overwhelming that
> > >the conquest of Latin America was inevitable.
>
> > Don't forget the guns and germs. And since the Spaniards did conquer
> > again and again the technological edge probably was good for something
> > or other.
>
> Alexander counquered again and again without much of a technological
> edge. He probably would have whupped Aztec ass, too. Competently led,
> trained and organised force is a lot bigger advantage than any
> technological edge.
And a better equipped force that knows how to use it has an even
bigger force multiplier.
I don't know enough about the equipment differences in Alexander's
time to know how they affected the outcome, but some hundreds of years
earlier, the heavy bronze armor and shields of the Greeks were a
decided advantage over the Persians. One of the more ridiculous
things about 300 is the absence of the armor. At least they let them
keep the shields.
== 11 of 14 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 26 2009 4:07 pm
From: dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney)
Marko Amnell <marko.amnell@kolumbus.fi> wrote:
>"Arindam Banerjee" <adda1234@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> As we know from Cannae, usually the last thing a formation wants is
>> envelopment by the enemy - the enemy attacking it from all sides at once
>> that is. But, the chakravyuha invites it. It is a circular formation,
>> which could be thin, with reserves in the centre with the general right
>> inside issuing commands. The chakravyuha can move in any direction as a
>> whole, and upon engagement rotates in a clockwise manner, just like the
>> chakra, thus adding an angular component to the attack.
>>
>> Normal frontal manoevers - the press of battle - of the kind commonly used
>> in ancient and even medieval Europe, may well be expected to pierce the
>> line. But that is just what could be disastrous. As the line is pierced,
>> the intruders are flanked and then cut off. from the main body They are
>> enveloped by the reserves within the chakra, and cut down.
>
>Avoiding encirclement is certainly the usual rule, but there are other
>formations that fight perfectly well when facing enemies from all
>sides, such as the Roman tortoise http://tinyurl.com/yzbqm2c
>or British infantry squares, which were so successful against
>French cavalry at Waterloo. http://tinyurl.com/yz4wers
ObSF: "And the 'edgehog can never be buggered at allllll!"
Dave "though that's PROBABLY not what she was singing about, I'd put her up
against many sergeants any day" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
== 12 of 14 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 26 2009 7:27 pm
From: Bill Snyder
On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 19:07:33 -0500, dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David
DeLaney) wrote:
>Marko Amnell <marko.amnell@kolumbus.fi> wrote:
>>"Arindam Banerjee" <adda1234@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>> As we know from Cannae, usually the last thing a formation wants is
>>> envelopment by the enemy - the enemy attacking it from all sides at once
>>> that is. But, the chakravyuha invites it. It is a circular formation,
>>> which could be thin, with reserves in the centre with the general right
>>> inside issuing commands. The chakravyuha can move in any direction as a
>>> whole, and upon engagement rotates in a clockwise manner, just like the
>>> chakra, thus adding an angular component to the attack.
>>>
>>> Normal frontal manoevers - the press of battle - of the kind commonly used
>>> in ancient and even medieval Europe, may well be expected to pierce the
>>> line. But that is just what could be disastrous. As the line is pierced,
>>> the intruders are flanked and then cut off. from the main body They are
>>> enveloped by the reserves within the chakra, and cut down.
>>
>>Avoiding encirclement is certainly the usual rule, but there are other
>>formations that fight perfectly well when facing enemies from all
>>sides, such as the Roman tortoise http://tinyurl.com/yzbqm2c
>>or British infantry squares, which were so successful against
>>French cavalry at Waterloo. http://tinyurl.com/yz4wers
>
>ObSF: "And the 'edgehog can never be buggered at allllll!"
>
>Dave "though that's PROBABLY not what she was singing about, I'd put her up
> against many sergeants any day" DeLaney
Which she'd probably enjoy a great deal more than they would.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
== 13 of 14 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 26 2009 9:50 pm
From: "Dan Tilque"
"Marko Amnell" <marko.amnell@kolumbus.fi> wrote
>
> But let's take an example from one of Howard's
> stories and see if the combat is realistic or not.
> Here is a fight from the short story "Queen of the
> Black Coast" in which Conan fights a group of
> barbarian pirates aboard a ship:
>
> "... A tall corsair, bounding over the rail, was met in midair
> by the Cimmerian's great sword, which sheared him cleanly
> through the torso, so that his body fell one way and his legs
> another.
This is probably the most unrealistic part of this battle. No way is it
possible for a human to slice a human body completely through the torso
with one stroke. Just not enough strength, no matter how sharp the blade
is. If he were a refugee from Krypton, he could do it, but otherwise no.
--
Dan Tilque
== 14 of 14 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 26 2009 11:54 pm
From: Juho Julkunen
In article <henpbd$mru$1@news.eternal-september.org>, Dan Tilque
(dtilque@verizon.net) says...
> "Marko Amnell" <marko.amnell@kolumbus.fi> wrote
> >
> > But let's take an example from one of Howard's
> > stories and see if the combat is realistic or not.
> > Here is a fight from the short story "Queen of the
> > Black Coast" in which Conan fights a group of
> > barbarian pirates aboard a ship:
> >
> > "... A tall corsair, bounding over the rail, was met in midair
> > by the Cimmerian's great sword, which sheared him cleanly
> > through the torso, so that his body fell one way and his legs
> > another.
>
> This is probably the most unrealistic part of this battle. No way is it
> possible for a human to slice a human body completely through the torso
> with one stroke. Just not enough strength, no matter how sharp the blade
> is. If he were a refugee from Krypton, he could do it, but otherwise no.
Don't be silly. Sure, us civilized weaklings with muscles like rotten
string couldn't do it, but it is perfectly feasible for a mighty-thewed
barbarian born and bred under an open sky. Likewise he can hack off
limbs and split skulls without ever getting his sword stuck for even an
instant.
--
Juho Julkunen
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Online discussion forums for fans of Nancy Drew, the Hardy Boys and Tom
Swift ~ 112609
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books/t/643132d3c64f2857?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 26 2009 5:42 am
From: "HardyBoys.us"
Online discussion forums for fans of Nancy Drew, the Hardy Boys and Tom Swift ~
112609
Nancy Drew Fan Forum
A group for adult fans of Carolyn Keene's famous Nancy Drew Mystery Series
Books.
Meet other fans, discuss all aspects of collecting and reading the Nancy Drew
series, buy/sell/trade Nancy Drew books,
collectibles and memorabilia.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheNancyDrewGroup/
Hardy Boys Fan Forum
A group for adult fans of Franklin W. Dixon's famous Hardy Boys Mystery Series
Books.
Meet other fans, discuss all aspects of collecting and reading the Hardy Boys
series, buy/sell/trade Hardy Boys books,
collectibles and memorabilia.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HardyBoys
Tom Swift Fan Forum
A group for adult fans of Victor Appleton's Tom Swift series.
Meet other fans, discuss all aspects of collecting and reading Tom Swift Sr.,
Jr., III, IV and Young Inventor and other books
by Victor Appleton.
Buy/sell/trade/seek Tom Swift books and memorabilia.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TomSwift/
...............
THE UNOFFICIAL NANCY DREW HOME PAGE
http://nancydrew.bobfinnan.com
Detailed information on all the books, both hardcover & paperback.
Plus info & pictures about the TV show, movies, collectibles & memorabilia and
much more!
"The Nancy Drew Connection" - A Nancy Drew Message Board
Plus Nancy Drew For Sale: http://hardyboys.bobfinnan.com/ndamaz.htm
THE HARDY BOYS UNOFFICIAL HOME PAGE
http://hardyboys.us
The most detailed site about the Hardy Boys on the Internet.
Detailed information on all the books, both hardcover & paperback.
All the TV series: the Mickey Mouse Club serials, the animated series, the 70's
series starring Shaun Cassidy & Parker
Stevenson and the syndicated series of the 90's.
Hundreds of pictures of Hardy Boys games, toys, collectibles and memorabilia.
There's also an FAQ page to answer many questions, an e-mail discussion group +
MORE!!!
All this at: http://hardyboys.bobfinnan.com or http://www.hardyboys.us
Plus Hardy Boys For Sale: http://hardyboys.bobfinnan.com/amazon.htm
THE UNOFFICIAL TOM SWIFT HOME PAGE
http://tomswift.bobfinnan.com
Information about all 5 generations of Tom Swift books!
Plus an online discussion group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TomSwift
Plus Tom Swift For Sale: http://hardyboys.bobfinnan.com/tsamaz.htm
-------------------------------------------------
==============================================================================
TOPIC: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ESCAPE GAMES ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books/t/c42cde71aba86b23?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 26 2009 8:38 am
From: Edward Bragg
.
~~~***~~~
==================================================
==================================================
click here to enter:
>>> http://search-results.cn/3/escape-games <<<
==================================================
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Anonymous Call Girl Author "Belle de Jour" Revealed!
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books/t/8878624253f7e05a?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Nov 26 2009 10:38 am
From: Just Me
How could we have missed this? I remember reading--what, half a year
ago -- a review of her memoir in the NY Times. Then today, paging
through the blogs at New Yorker Dot Com to discover some reason for
their current dearth of coverage on the recent posthumous Nabokov
release, what should pop up . . .
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/books/2009/11/jane-doe-du-jour.html
Good God. And by linkage . . .
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/article6917260.ece
Whoa!
--
JM
"Doctor, Doctor!
Say, Mistress M.D.?
Can you tell me,
What's ailin' me?
She said, "Yeah!
Yeah! Yeah!
Yeah! Yeah!"
All you need?
It's Good Lovin'!
Lotsa kissin'
An' huggin'.*
--
JM http://doo-dads.blogspot.com
*Young Rascals, 1966
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Has laoreet percipitur ad. Vide interesset in mei, no his legimus verterem. Et nostrum imperdiet appellantur usu, mnesarchum referrentur id vim.
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