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* Conan's realism (was Re: The Books That Founded D&D) - 25 messages, 6
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TOPIC: Conan's realism (was Re: The Books That Founded D&D)
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books/t/8ba57c69243a3499?hl=en
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== 1 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 12:41 pm
From: Marko Amnell
On Nov 29, 9:36 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
> On 2009-11-29 11:10:36 -0800, "Marko Amnell" <marko.amn...@kolumbus.fi> said:
>
> > "Kurt Busiek" <k...@busiek.com> wrote in message heuf6k$9c...@solani.org...
> >> On 2009-11-29 09:44:59 -0800, "Marko Amnell" <marko.amn...@kolumbus.fi>
> >> said:
>
> >>> "Kurt Busiek" <k...@busiek.com> said in message
> >>> heua55$2m...@solani.org...
> >>>> On 2009-11-29 05:49:10 -0800, "W. Citoan" <wcit...@NOSPAM-yahoo.com>
> >>>> said:
>
> >>>>> Endymion9 wrote:
>
> >>>>>> What I see as the error in your premise is that these pirates or
> >>>>>> barbarians are "ordinary" men. They would be the swordsmen who had
> >>>>>> survived many battles with other pirates, barbarians etc. There
> >>>>>> might be a few new recruits, but mainly they would be made up of
> >>>>>> survivors who had more than ordinary skill. That's why I related
> >>>>>> them to at least alternates on a fencing team. Some of them might be
> >>>>>> better than that.
>
> >>>>> Okay, if you're discussing the realism of Conan's abilities, then you
> >>>>> also
> >>>>> need to be realistic about his opponents abilities. History has
> >>>>> already
> >>>>> shown the above to be an overstatement. A few skilled ex-military
> >>>>> maybe, but they survived by preying on the weaker.
>
> >>>> I'm still curious as to when REH said Conan was the greatest swordsman
> >>>> of
> >>>> the age.
>
> >>>> Greatest warrior, perhaps, for his fury and strength, and Howard didn't
> >>>> present Conan as without skill. I just don't remember him presenting
> >>>> Conan as a supremely-skilled swordsman, as opposed to a very capable
> >>>> swordsman who backed it up with power and a near-berserker fury.
>
> >>> That is a fair point. Conan is not the supreme finesse sword fighter.
> >>> But his great strength allows him to defeat any opponent. When
> >>> I said that he was the greatest swordsman of his age I meant that
> >>> he could defeat anyone else in a sword fight. Winning is what
> >>> counts, not how you win. Howard states this explicitly in
> >>> "Hour of the Dragon":
>
> >>> ""Their present king is the most renowned warrior among the
> >>> western nations. He is an outlander, an adventurer who seized
> >>> the crown by force during a time of civil strife, strangling
> >>> King Namedides with his own hands, upon the very throne.
> >>> His name is Conan, and no man can stand before him in battle."
> >>>http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0600981.txt
>
> >> Two caveats to that:
>
> >> 1. Howard is not stating that explicitly, since it's dialogue, not
> >> narration. He's having Orastes state it explicitly, which makes it
> >> Orastes' opinion, rather than a fact. Orastes could be wrog, he could be
> >> exaggerating, he could be describing the prevailing opinion -- but since
> >> Orastes does'nt know the capability of every man in the world in the
> >> Hyborian Age, he's at best guessing.
>
> > It is not just one man's guess.
>
> That line of dialogue is one man's judgment, at least. You said Howard
> states it explicitly; I'm pointing out that he put it into the mouth of
> a character, making it a subjective judgment, not an objective one.
It's a subjective judgement that is backed up by everything
else Howard ever wrote about Conan in combat. It's clear
that Conan's fighting prowess could only be matched by
a handful of men in the world. The way I read it, Orastes
is stating the consensus opinion about Conan.
> > Throughout the 22 Conan stories, Conan
> > is repeatedly portrayed as winning in combat against incredible odds.
>
> Sure. I wouldn't argue with that (aside from quibbling that this is
> what pulp heroes do, and the author often intervenes on Conan's
> behalf).
Give me examples of that, please. Even if luck sometimes plays
a part in Conan's success, that does not make his achievements
"superhuman."
> I'm responding to your saying that REH stated explicitly that
> Conan can't be defeated in a swordfight. Orastes doesn't even say that
> -- he says "no man can stand before him in battle."
It means that Conan would win in any fight against any man,
no matter what weapons the contestants were using, including
sword vs. sword.
> But even that line
> is dialogue, not authorial proclamation.
[...]
> >> And if "winning is what counts" is the measure you're using, then you've
> >> abandoned the Musashi argument, since Musashi is talking
> >> about skill, not fury and strength.
>
> > Wrong. Musashi does not say that only the most technically
> > skilled swordsman of his age can defeat ten opponents
> > in combat.
>
> And I didn't say he did. You quoted what I said.
By any measure, Conan has attained the virtue of the
long sword, i.e. he has mastered its use. Therefore,
Musashi's statement about skill applies to him, so
I didn't abandon the Musashi argument. Conan's
great strength simply gives him an additional edge,
making him one of the greatest warriors in the world
(if not indeed the greatest).
== 2 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 12:52 pm
From: Marko Amnell
On Nov 29, 10:34 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
[...]
> > Conan's feats are humanly possible. If you don't agree, don't just
> > say so. Give me examples from the stories in which Conan
> > performs feats of strength which are clearly beyond what any
> > human being could perform.
>
> Oh, come on. You're not really going to spend time responding
> to a discussion of a feat that's being offered as something that's
> not humanly possible and then claim that no example was given,
> are you?
Breaking a bull's neck is a boast by Conan, who could have been
lying. Give me an example of a event actually narrated by Howard.
If Conan's abilities are really that unrealistic, it should not be
difficult for you.
== 3 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 1:09 pm
From: Marko Amnell
On Nov 29, 10:34 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
[..]
> I don't believe the torque necessary to overcoming the massive
> neck muscle of a wild bull and breaking its spine is generatable by
> human arms, regardless of adrenalin. Partcularly not he arms of a
> teenage boy who hasn't yet broken 180 pounds. I think the arms
> would break first.
>
> I don't think REH intends that to be superhuman, but I do think
> it's superhuman.
You are wrong. It's all a question of technique. There is a
discussion of this topic here:
http://www.conan.com/invboard/index.php?showtopic=4723
And the conclusion of this discussion is:
"So the consensus is that, sufficiently skilled, it could be
possible to kill a bull by breaking it's neck by bull-dogging
or dumog, so that would be a way for young Conan to do this."
One of the most knowledgeable comments is:
"As a Full Contact Stickfighter and Kali student. I can tell
you that Small Filipino men in some of the Islands can Dumog
a water buffalo and thats a Animal that weights around 1500lbs
and a average Filipino man is probably 5'5..A dumog is a
attempt to grab the buffalo around the neck and bring him
down to the earth..Why? Because if you can Do that to a
Water Buffalo you can do that to a Man..They showed this
on the History channel 2 fridays ago. So..As you can see,
you don't have to be a over massive person to do this or
break a bulls neck..You need leverage and a good grip."
== 4 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 1:16 pm
From: Kurt Busiek
On 2009-11-29 12:41:29 -0800, Marko Amnell <marko.amnell@kolumbus.fi> said:
> On Nov 29, 9:36 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
>> On 2009-11-29 11:10:36 -0800, "Marko Amnell" <marko.amn...@kolumbus.fi> said:
>>> "Kurt Busiek" <k...@busiek.com> wrote in message heuf6k$9c...@solani.org...
>>>> On 2009-11-29 09:44:59 -0800, "Marko Amnell" <marko.amn...@kolumbus.fi said:
>>
>>>>> That is a fair point. Conan is not the supreme finesse sword fighter.
>>>>> But his great strength allows him to defeat any opponent. When
>>>>> I said that he was the greatest swordsman of his age I meant that
>>>>> he could defeat anyone else in a sword fight. Winning is what
>>>>> counts, not how you win. Howard states this explicitly in
>>>>> "Hour of the Dragon":
>>
>>>>> ""Their present king is the most renowned warrior among the
>>>>> western nations. He is an outlander, an adventurer who seized
>>>>> the crown by force during a time of civil strife, strangling
>>>>> King Namedides with his own hands, upon the very throne.
>>>>> His name is Conan, and no man can stand before him in battle."
>>>>> http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0600981.txt
>>
>>>> Two caveats to that:
>>
>>>> 1. Howard is not stating that explicitly, since it's dialogue, not
>>>> narration. He's having Orastes state it explicitly, which makes it
>>>> Orastes' opinion, rather than a fact. Orastes could be wrog, he could be
>>>> exaggerating, he could be describing the prevailing opinion -- but since
>>>> Orastes does'nt know the capability of every man in the world in the
>>>> Hyborian Age, he's at best guessing.
>>
>>> It is not just one man's guess.
>>
>> That line of dialogue is one man's judgment, at least. You said Howard
>> states it explicitly; I'm pointing out that he put it into the mouth of
>> a character, making it a subjective judgment, not an objective one.
>
> It's a subjective judgement that is backed up by everything
> else Howard ever wrote about Conan in combat. It's clear
> that Conan's fighting prowess could only be matched by
> a handful of men in the world. The way I read it, Orastes
> is stating the consensus opinion about Conan.
Perhaps, but (a) it's still Orastes expressing an opinion, and not
explicit fact, and (b) as phrased, Orastes is incorrect. Men have
stood before Conan in battle, and he's even been beaten on occasion.
Sometimes by numbers, sometimes by circumstance, at least once by
alcohol. Your interpretation of Orastes' statement is not what Orastes
actually says, and what Orastes actually says can only be taken as
poetry, because it's technically incorrect.
>>> Throughout the 22 Conan stories, Conan
>>> is repeatedly portrayed as winning in combat against incredible odds.
>>
>> Sure. I wouldn't argue with that (aside from quibbling that this is
>> what pulp heroes do, and the author often intervenes on Conan's
>> behalf).
>
> Give me examples of that, please. Even if luck sometimes plays
> a part in Conan's success, that does not make his achievements
> "superhuman."
I'm sorry, did you suddenly switch conversations, or are you building a
straw man? Where in "I wouldn't argue with that (aside from quibbling
that this is what pulp heroes do, and the author often intervenes on
Conan's behalf)" does "superhuman" get invoked? Conan gets rescued
when needed, he has the right mystic tools for the job when needed, he
almost invariably finds himself fighting on advantageous-to-him
circumstances and when he's defeated it's never by anyone who wants him
dead at that moment. The author's rigging the fights; it's what
authors do.
>> I'm responding to your saying that REH stated explicitly that
>> Conan can't be defeated in a swordfight. Orastes doesn't even say that
>> -- he says "no man can stand before him in battle."
>
> It means that Conan would win in any fight against any man,
> no matter what weapons the contestants were using, including
> sword vs. sword.
Tsotha-Lanti in "The Scarlet Citadel" stood before Conan in battle and
won; the fact that he had the advantage that Conan was exhausted and
surrounded doesn't alter the fact that it was sword versus poison ring,
and poison ring won. Conan didn't win that fight.
You may assume it means that it has to be a fair fight, but so few
battles are that it's hard to imagine Orastes would mean that and not
say it.
> By any measure, Conan has attained the virtue of the
> long sword, i.e. he has mastered its use. Therefore,
> Musashi's statement about skill applies to him, so
> I didn't abandon the Musashi argument. Conan's
> great strength simply gives him an additional edge,
> making him one of the greatest warriors in the world
> (if not indeed the greatest).
I'd go with "greatest warrior," it's "greatest swordsman" that I quibbled with.
And I disagree that the kind of skill Musashi is talking about is the
kind of skill Conan has. I see no particularly convincing evidence in
the REH stories that Conan is the kind of swordsman a master samurai
would consider to be someone who had mastery of the sword.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
== 5 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 1:18 pm
From: Kurt Busiek
On 2009-11-29 12:52:32 -0800, Marko Amnell <marko.amnell@kolumbus.fi> said:
> On Nov 29, 10:34 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>> Conan's feats are humanly possible. If you don't agree, don't just
>>> say so. Give me examples from the stories in which Conan
>>> performs feats of strength which are clearly beyond what any
>>> human being could perform.
>>
>> Oh, come on. You're not really going to spend time responding
>> to a discussion of a feat that's being offered as something that's
>> not humanly possible and then claim that no example was given,
>> are you?
>
> Breaking a bull's neck is a boast by Conan, who could have been
> lying. Give me an example of a event actually narrated by Howard.
> If Conan's abilities are really that unrealistic, it should not be
> difficult for you.
I repeat my earlier point about how much weight you put on Orastes, and
how easily you dismiss Conan, who over the course ofthe stories has
proven pretty trustworthy. Are there a lot of other things he's said
about his past that turned out to be lies?
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
== 6 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 1:26 pm
From: Marko Amnell
On Nov 29, 11:18 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
> On 2009-11-29 12:52:32 -0800, Marko Amnell <marko.amn...@kolumbus.fi> said:
>
> > On Nov 29, 10:34 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
>
> > [...]
>
> >>> Conan's feats are humanly possible. If you don't agree, don't just
> >>> say so. Give me examples from the stories in which Conan
> >>> performs feats of strength which are clearly beyond what any
> >>> human being could perform.
>
> >> Oh, come on. You're not really going to spend time responding
> >> to a discussion of a feat that's being offered as something that's
> >> not humanly possible and then claim that no example was given,
> >> are you?
>
> > Breaking a bull's neck is a boast by Conan, who could have been
> > lying. Give me an example of a event actually narrated by Howard.
> > If Conan's abilities are really that unrealistic, it should not be
> > difficult for you.
>
> I repeat my earlier point about how much weight you put on Orastes, and
> how easily you dismiss Conan, who over the course ofthe stories has
> proven pretty trustworthy. Are there a lot of other things he's said
> about his past that turned out to be lies?
Even if Conan were telling the truth about breaking a bull's
neck, I have already shown that this is not impossible but
merely requires the right technique.
So put up or shut up. Give me an example from the origional
Conan stories in which Conan performs a feat of strength
that is clearly beyond what any human being could accomplish.
== 7 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 1:37 pm
From: Kurt Busiek
On 2009-11-29 13:09:35 -0800, Marko Amnell <marko.amnell@kolumbus.fi> said:
> On Nov 29, 10:34 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
>
> [..]
>
>> I don't believe the torque necessary to overcoming the massive
>> neck muscle of a wild bull and breaking its spine is generatable by
>> human arms, regardless of adrenalin. Partcularly not he arms of a
>> teenage boy who hasn't yet broken 180 pounds. I think the arms
>> would break first.
>>
>> I don't think REH intends that to be superhuman, but I do think
>> it's superhuman.
>
> You are wrong. It's all a question of technique. There is a
> discussion of this topic here:
>
> http://www.conan.com/invboard/index.php?showtopic=4723
I begin to see why you declare so many things to be "historical fact."
You take it as a given that "Max the Gaijin" knows what he's talking
about, because, well, he says so. And no one on the internet ever
bullshits anyone. And we won't bother to note either that "Max the
Gajin" is attesting to dumogging, which does not invove breaking the
bull's neck, and that even he notes that in the video he refers to,
things may have been going the other way, unless you "read into" the
edited version.
A pseudonymous guy on the Internet is a knowledgable and trustworthy
source. In fact, he's "one of the most knowledgable." This despite
the fact that you don't know who he is, you don't know what his actual
qualifications are, he doesn't claim to have experience with dumogging
himself (he claims to be a student of stickfighting) and references it
from a TV show he saw.
The rest of that thread talks about how bulls get their necks broken
during bulldogging, but the sources they link to describe only one such
event, and the Chronicle article doesn't say how it happened, but the
other accounts of animals breaking their necks in rodeos linked to
happened largely when the animal slammed head first into a wall, not
when some brawny cowboy twisted their necks hard enough to crack bone
on arm strength alone.
So no, I don't think "it's all a matter of technique," and a bunch of
Conan fans agreeing with each other that it is doesn't amount to a
convincing argument.
Robert E. Howard wrote some excellent stories; there's no need to
aggrandize them into marvels of physics and accurate combat skill. He
was making stuff up. He had Conan says he broke the neck of a
Cimmerian bull because it sounded ballsy and impressive. REH didn't
need to know or care whether it was physically possible. Thestory's a
terrific story, and Conan a terrific character, even if a pulp writer
exaggerated here and there.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
== 8 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 1:45 pm
From: Kurt Busiek
On 2009-11-29 13:26:05 -0800, Marko Amnell <marko.amnell@kolumbus.fi> said:
> On Nov 29, 11:18 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
>> On 2009-11-29 12:52:32 -0800, Marko Amnell <marko.amn...@kolumbus.fi> said:
>>
>>> On Nov 29, 10:34 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
>>
>>> [...]
>>
>>>>> Conan's feats are humanly possible. If you don't agree, don't just
>>>>> say so. Give me examples from the stories in which Conan
>>>>> performs feats of strength which are clearly beyond what any
>>>>> human being could perform.
>>
>>>> Oh, come on. You're not really going to spend time responding
>>>> to a discussion of a feat that's being offered as something that's
>>>> not humanly possible and then claim that no example was given,
>>>> are you?
>>
>>> Breaking a bull's neck is a boast by Conan, who could have been
>>> lying. Give me an example of a event actually narrated by Howard.
>>> If Conan's abilities are really that unrealistic, it should not be
>>> difficult for you.
>>
>> I repeat my earlier point about how much weight you put on Orastes, and
>> how easily you dismiss Conan, who over the course ofthe stories has
>> proven pretty trustworthy. Are there a lot of other things he's said
>> about his past that turned out to be lies?
>
> Even if Conan were telling the truth about breaking a bull's
> neck, I have already shown that this is not impossible but
> merely requires the right technique.
No, you haven't. You've pointed to a bunch of Conan fans who agreed
with each other that it's possible, and by your own account, one of the
"most knowledgable" comments came from a pseudonymous stickfighting
student about something he saw on TV that didn't actually involve
breaking a bull's neck.
> So put up or shut up. Give me an example from the origional
> Conan stories in which Conan performs a feat of strength
> that is clearly beyond what any human being could accomplish.
He broke the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull when he was still a youth,
and claims to have done it by strangling.
I actually wrote him doing it, in an adaptation for Dark Horse, and
even there I had him using bulldogging technique rather than by
gripping the bull around the throat and twisting, which his how he says
he did it.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
== 9 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 1:50 pm
From: Marko Amnell
On Nov 29, 11:37 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
> On 2009-11-29 13:09:35 -0800, Marko Amnell <marko.amn...@kolumbus.fi> said:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 29, 10:34 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
>
> > [..]
>
> >> I don't believe the torque necessary to overcoming the massive
> >> neck muscle of a wild bull and breaking its spine is generatable by
> >> human arms, regardless of adrenalin. Partcularly not he arms of a
> >> teenage boy who hasn't yet broken 180 pounds. I think the arms
> >> would break first.
>
> >> I don't think REH intends that to be superhuman, but I do think
> >> it's superhuman.
>
> > You are wrong. It's all a question of technique. There is a
> > discussion of this topic here:
>
> >http://www.conan.com/invboard/index.php?showtopic=4723
>
> I begin to see why you declare so many things to be "historical fact."
>
> You take it as a given that "Max the Gaijin" knows what he's talking
> about, because, well, he says so. And no one on the internet ever
> bullshits anyone. And we won't bother to note either that "Max the
> Gajin" is attesting to dumogging, which does not invove breaking the
> bull's neck, and that even he notes that in the video he refers to,
> things may have been going the other way, unless you "read into" the
> edited version.
>
> A pseudonymous guy on the Internet is a knowledgable and trustworthy
> source. In fact, he's "one of the most knowledgable." This despite
> the fact that you don't know who he is, you don't know what his actual
> qualifications are, he doesn't claim to have experience with dumogging
> himself (he claims to be a student of stickfighting) and references it
> from a TV show he saw.
>
> The rest of that thread talks about how bulls get their necks broken
> during bulldogging, but the sources they link to describe only one such
> event, and the Chronicle article doesn't say how it happened, but the
> other accounts of animals breaking their necks in rodeos linked to
> happened largely when the animal slammed head first into a wall, not
> when some brawny cowboy twisted their necks hard enough to crack bone
> on arm strength alone.
>
> So no, I don't think "it's all a matter of technique," and a bunch of
> Conan fans agreeing with each other that it is doesn't amount to a
> convincing argument.
>
> Robert E. Howard wrote some excellent stories; there's no need to
> aggrandize them into marvels of physics and accurate combat skill. He
> was making stuff up. He had Conan says he broke the neck of a
> Cimmerian bull because it sounded ballsy and impressive. REH didn't
> need to know or care whether it was physically possible. Thestory's a
> terrific story, and Conan a terrific character, even if a pulp writer
> exaggerated here and there.
Blah blah blah. It's clear from the forum discussion that it is
at least humanly possible for someone to break the neck of
a bull with the right technique. You got caught bullshitting
and you are trying to cover your ass.
Furthermore, Conan might have been lying when he said that.
So put up or shut up. Give me an example from the original
Conan stories in which Conan performs a feat of strength
that is clearly beyond what any human being could accomplish.
But I don't think you can. All you have is your gut feeling that
Conan's feats must be superhuman. But that isn't going to
cut the mustard.
== 10 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 1:56 pm
From: Kurt Busiek
On 2009-11-29 13:45:49 -0800, Kurt Busiek <kurt@busiek.com> said:
> On 2009-11-29 13:26:05 -0800, Marko Amnell <marko.amnell@kolumbus.fi> said:
>
>> On Nov 29, 11:18 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
>>> On 2009-11-29 12:52:32 -0800, Marko Amnell <marko.amn...@kolumbus.fi> said:
>>>
>>>> On Nov 29, 10:34 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>
>>>>>> Conan's feats are humanly possible. If you don't agree, don't just
>>>>>> say so. Give me examples from the stories in which Conan
>>>>>> performs feats of strength which are clearly beyond what any
>>>>>> human being could perform.
>>>
>>>>> Oh, come on. You're not really going to spend time responding
>>>>> to a discussion of a feat that's being offered as something that's
>>>>> not humanly possible and then claim that no example was given,
>>>>> are you?
>>>
>>>> Breaking a bull's neck is a boast by Conan, who could have been
>>>> lying. Give me an example of a event actually narrated by Howard.
>>>> If Conan's abilities are really that unrealistic, it should not be
>>>> difficult for you.
>>>
>>> I repeat my earlier point about how much weight you put on Orastes, and
>>> how easily you dismiss Conan, who over the course ofthe stories has
>>> proven pretty trustworthy. Are there a lot of other things he's said
>>> about his past that turned out to be lies?
>>
>> Even if Conan were telling the truth about breaking a bull's
>> neck, I have already shown that this is not impossible but
>> merely requires the right technique.
>
> No, you haven't. You've pointed to a bunch of Conan fans who agreed
> with each other that it's possible, and by your own account, one of the
> "most knowledgable" comments came from a pseudonymous stickfighting
> student about something he saw on TV that didn't actually involve
> breaking a bull's neck.
Heck, even "Taranaich," who is a self-professed Metal Barbarian
Dinosaur, and thus clearly knowledgable about barbarian issues, says,
"I doubt even Conan could kill a bull by grabbing [its] neck and
twisting it about."
And he's from "The Bleak Moors of Scotland."
And "Painbrush," the "bastard son of a thousand nations," points out
that back then, we'd be talking a much larger animal, something like an
auroch.
So not so much consensus as originally claimed.
Put it this way: I know Rusty Burke, and I'll credit Rusty Burke. But
guys named Painbrush and Max the Gaijin don't have a lot of expert
standing. Rusty says bulls break their neck in rodeos, I'll accept it,
but I'd still like to know more about how. I don't think it happens
the way Conan describes it in the story.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
== 11 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 1:57 pm
From: Marko Amnell
On Nov 29, 11:45 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
[...]
> > So put up or shut up. Give me an example from the origional
> > Conan stories in which Conan performs a feat of strength
> > that is clearly beyond what any human being could accomplish.
>
> He broke the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull when he was still a
> youth, and claims to have done it by strangling.
Ha ha ha! So that is the best example you can think of? Need I
remind you that you didn't even provide this example yourself.
I provided it by quoting the passage from "Shadows in Zamboula."
So by my count, you have so far provided a grand total of
zero examples of Conan's superhuman abilities.
And as we both agree, Conan might have been lying so this example
proves nothing.
So put up or shut up. Give me an example from the origional
Conan stories in which Conan performs a feat of strength
that is clearly beyond what any human being could accomplish.
== 12 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 2:03 pm
From: Kurt Busiek
On 2009-11-29 13:50:06 -0800, Marko Amnell <marko.amnell@kolumbus.fi> said:
> Blah blah blah. It's clear from the forum discussion that it is
> at least humanly possible for someone to break the neck of
> a bull with the right technique.
No, it isn't, not from that forum at least. Your experts are pulp fans
hiding behind pseudonyms, and the techniques you say they're talking
about didn't actually break any bulls' necks, from their links. The
only reference to an actual broken neck on a bull in a rodeo doesn't
mention how it happened, and your key witness describes something he
saw on TV that didn't break a bull's neck.
> You got caught bullshitting and you are trying to cover your ass.
On the contrary, you're the one who's been openly bullshitting, talking
about "most knowledgable" testimony by someone whose identity you don't
know and who doesn't testify to what you claim. You just don't like
being called on it.
> So put up or shut up. Give me an example from the original
> Conan stories in which Conan performs a feat of strength
> that is clearly beyond what any human being could accomplish.
He broke the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull while still a youth.
> But I don't think you can. All you have is your gut feeling that
> Conan's feats must be superhuman. But that isn't going to
> cut the mustard.
I don't have any mustard that needs cutting, and I'm unaware of when
you got appointed the judge, as opposed to one of the people making
claims.
You've tried to prove that ehat Conan said he did is actually possiby,
but in doing so you had to invoke different techniques, questionable
sources and then tie them together into a claim that isn't supported
even if you trust "Max the Gaijin's" TV-watching expertise.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
== 13 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 2:05 pm
From: Kurt Busiek
On 2009-11-29 13:57:52 -0800, Marko Amnell <marko.amnell@kolumbus.fi> said:
> On Nov 29, 11:45 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>> So put up or shut up. Give me an example from the origional
>>> Conan stories in which Conan performs a feat of strength
>>> that is clearly beyond what any human being could accomplish.
>>
>> He broke the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull when he was still a
>> youth, and claims to have done it by strangling.
>
> Ha ha ha! So that is the best example you can think of?
It works just fine. You've utterly failed in your attempts to prove it
possible by quoting pseudonymous guys on the internet.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
== 14 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 2:08 pm
From: Marko Amnell
On Nov 30, 12:05 am, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
> On 2009-11-29 13:57:52 -0800, Marko Amnell <marko.amn...@kolumbus.fi> said:
>
> > On Nov 29, 11:45 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
>
> > [...]
>
> >>> So put up or shut up. Give me an example from the origional
> >>> Conan stories in which Conan performs a feat of strength
> >>> that is clearly beyond what any human being could accomplish.
>
> >> He broke the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull when he was still a
> >> youth, and claims to have done it by strangling.
>
> > Ha ha ha! So that is the best example you can think of?
>
> It works just fine. You've utterly failed in your attempts to prove it
> possible by quoting pseudonymous guys on the internet.
It is not a description by Howard of something Conan
actually did. It is a boast by Conan, who could have been
lying. Which part of this don't you understand?
== 15 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 2:23 pm
From: Kurt Busiek
On 2009-11-29 14:08:33 -0800, Marko Amnell <marko.amnell@kolumbus.fi> said:
> On Nov 30, 12:05 am, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
>> On 2009-11-29 13:57:52 -0800, Marko Amnell <marko.amn...@kolumbus.fi> sai
> d:
>>
>>> On Nov 29, 11:45 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
>>
>>> [...]
>>
>>>>> So put up or shut up. Give me an example from the origional
>>>>> Conan stories in which Conan performs a feat of strength
>>>>> that is clearly beyond what any human being could accomplish.
>>
>>>> He broke the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull when he was still a
>>>> youth, and claims to have done it by strangling.
>>
>>> Ha ha ha! So that is the best example you can think of?
>>
>> It works just fine. You've utterly failed in your attempts to prove it
>> possible by quoting pseudonymous guys on the internet.
>
> It is not a description by Howard of something Conan
> actually did. It is a boast by Conan, who could have been
> lying. Which part of this don't you understand?
All those other times Conan lied, while Orastes proved an infallible
source of truth. Are we now to assume that Conan didn't go over the
walls at Venarium? That he wasn't talked about around the council
fires? Our direct, forceful, uncorrupted-by-civilization hero is a
lying sack of shit whenever it suits us, apparently.
But you're insisting that it's realio-trulio possible, and pseudonymous
stickfighting students on the internet who claimed something else prove
that it could really have happened. If so, it's irrelevant whether the
noble barbarian who has no reason to lie just told a whopper, or
whether he's as dependable as he usually is.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
== 16 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 2:44 pm
From: Shawn Wilson
On Nov 29, 3:03 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
> > So put up or shut up. Give me an example from the original
> > Conan stories in which Conan performs a feat of strength
> > that is clearly beyond what any human being could accomplish.
>
> He broke the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull while still a youth.
And we really don't know how large "wild Cimmerian bulls" actually
were. They could very well be smaller than the bulls we know of, even
if aurochs were larger.
I think it's pretty clear that as far as Howard was concerned, Conan
had the strength of a very strong man but not 'superhuman' strength.
He was an 18 in D&D terms, not a 20+.
== 17 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 2:46 pm
From: "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Shawn Wilson wrote:
> On Nov 29, 3:03 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
>
>>> So put up or shut up. Give me an example from the original
>>> Conan stories in which Conan performs a feat of strength
>>> that is clearly beyond what any human being could accomplish.
>> He broke the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull while still a youth.
>
>
>
> And we really don't know how large "wild Cimmerian bulls" actually
> were. They could very well be smaller than the bulls we know of, even
> if aurochs were larger.
>
> I think it's pretty clear that as far as Howard was concerned, Conan
> had the strength of a very strong man but not 'superhuman' strength.
> He was an 18 in D&D terms, not a 20+.
Which version of D&D?
3e, I'd put him in the high 20s. Possibly in the low 30s at his peak.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
== 18 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 2:57 pm
From: Kurt Busiek
On 2009-11-29 14:44:43 -0800, Shawn Wilson <ikonoqlast@gmail.com> said:
> On Nov 29, 3:03 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
>
>>> So put up or shut up. Give me an example from the original
>>> Conan stories in which Conan performs a feat of strength
>>> that is clearly beyond what any human being could accomplish.
>>
>> He broke the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull while still a youth.
>
> And we really don't know how large "wild Cimmerian bulls" actually
> were. They could very well be smaller than the bulls we know of, even
> if aurochs were larger.
But we can assume that Howard meant to evoke a very powerful image to
an audience that had a mental picture of what a bull is, not do a
bait-and-switch-that-never-switched wherein he secretly meant a much
less impressive creature.
> I think it's pretty clear that as far as Howard was concerned, Conan
> had the strength of a very strong man but not 'superhuman' strength.
Absoutely. My argument has been that Conan isn't superhuman by
Hyborian Age standards, but it's a pulp fiction world, not one of
exacting realism. When Conan does something that's not actually
physically possible, it's not that Howard is meaning to indicate that
Conan is superhuman, but that Howard overreached for a cool bit.
He's human by the standards of the world he lives in, but those
standards are REH's imagination, not reality.
> He was an 18 in D&D terms, not a 20+.
I have no idea what that means; the last time I played D&D, they were
introducing this new version called "Advanced D&D." But I don't really
need to know. Pulp heroes, like superheroes, tend to defy any
numerical scale somewhere, even if it's just because some Handbook says
Captain Slambo can lift 180 tons and the artists have no idea how much
that is in terms of visual stuff, so they show ol' Cap struggling to
lift something that weighs 90 tons and then effortlessly lifting
something that weighs 200 tons. That kind of hero does what reads as
cool, and doesn't much care about specific numbers.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
== 19 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 3:16 pm
From: Bill Snyder
On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:57:28 -0800, Kurt Busiek <kurt@busiek.com>
wrote:
>On 2009-11-29 14:44:43 -0800, Shawn Wilson <ikonoqlast@gmail.com> said:
>
>> On Nov 29, 3:03 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> So put up or shut up. Give me an example from the original
>>>> Conan stories in which Conan performs a feat of strength
>>>> that is clearly beyond what any human being could accomplish.
>>>
>>> He broke the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull while still a youth.
>>
>> And we really don't know how large "wild Cimmerian bulls" actually
>> were. They could very well be smaller than the bulls we know of, even
>> if aurochs were larger.
>
>But we can assume that Howard meant to evoke a very powerful image to
>an audience that had a mental picture of what a bull is, not do a
>bait-and-switch-that-never-switched wherein he secretly meant a much
>less impressive creature.
Yes, I think we'd all agree that "I effortlessly snapped the neck
of a wild Cimmerian marmot" does not have quite the same ring.
>> I think it's pretty clear that as far as Howard was concerned, Conan
>> had the strength of a very strong man but not 'superhuman' strength.
>
>Absoutely. My argument has been that Conan isn't superhuman by
>Hyborian Age standards, but it's a pulp fiction world, not one of
>exacting realism. When Conan does something that's not actually
>physically possible, it's not that Howard is meaning to indicate that
>Conan is superhuman, but that Howard overreached for a cool bit.
>
>He's human by the standards of the world he lives in, but those
>standards are REH's imagination, not reality.
It depends on just how seriously Howard took the "barbarians are
superior; civilized men are degenerate" notion. My impression is
that he was doing more than just giving it lip service for
fictional purposes. Maybe Conan *was* a tad superhuman by the
standards of anyone who buys steaks and roasts from the butcher
instead of going out and spearing (or bull-dogging) an aurochs.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
== 20 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 3:24 pm
From: Shawn Wilson
On Nov 29, 3:46 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> > I think it's pretty clear that as far as Howard was concerned, Conan
> > had the strength of a very strong man but not 'superhuman' strength.
> > He was an 18 in D&D terms, not a 20+.
>
> Which version of D&D?
>
> 3e, I'd put him in the high 20s. Possibly in the low 30s at his peak.
What? Hell no. THAT would be clearly superhuman.
== 21 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 3:29 pm
From: Shawn Wilson
On Nov 29, 3:57 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
> >> He broke the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull while still a youth.
>
> > And we really don't know how large "wild Cimmerian bulls" actually
> > were. They could very well be smaller than the bulls we know of, even
> > if aurochs were larger.
>
> But we can assume that Howard meant to evoke a very powerful image to
> an audience that had a mental picture of what a bull is, not do a
> bait-and-switch-that-never-switched wherein he secretly meant a much
> less impressive creature.
Or, as Conan wasn't full grown at the time, maybe the bull wasn't
either.
> > He was an 18 in D&D terms, not a 20+.
>
> I have no idea what that means; the last time I played D&D, they were
> introducing this new version called "Advanced D&D."
More or less the same- 10 is average for a physically active man, 18
is maximum human potential.
> But I don't really
> need to know.
Heretic!
== 22 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 3:39 pm
From: "Marko Amnell"
"Shawn Wilson" <ikonoqlast@gmail.com> wrote in message
2ff91d82-8beb-471c-9432-ef8616d1c8f2@y28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 29, 3:03 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
> > > So put up or shut up. Give me an example from the original
> > > Conan stories in which Conan performs a feat of strength
> > > that is clearly beyond what any human being could accomplish.
> >
> > He broke the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull while still a youth.
>
> And we really don't know how large "wild Cimmerian bulls" actually
> were. They could very well be smaller than the bulls we know of, even
> if aurochs were larger.
>
> I think it's pretty clear that as far as Howard was concerned, Conan
> had the strength of a very strong man but not 'superhuman' strength.
> He was an 18 in D&D terms, not a 20+.
Thank you. Conan's strength would be 18 (in 2nd edition AD&D terms).
In the two Conan modules "Conan Unchained!" and "Conan Against
Darkness!" published by TSR, Conan has a strength of 18(90), i.e.
less than the maximum human strength of 18(00). His full stats are:
Fighter: 13
Thief: 7
Hit Points: 100
Luck Points: 12
Strength: 18 (90)
Intelligence: 14
Wisdom: 10
Dexterity: 18
Constitution: 18
Charisma: 17
Conan's height and weight are never given in the original stories and
this had led to much speculation about his actual size. On the one
hand, he is described as towering over other people. This has led
many people to consider him to be 6'6" to 6'8" tall or even taller
and weighing 260 pounds or more. I said he is about the same size
as Peter Francisco, who was 6'6" and 280 lbs. So I fall into this
first group.
But Howard himself said that Conan was a physical double for
the Norman-Irish adventurer Cormac FitsGeoffrey, who stood
6'2" and weighed 215 lbs. Howard also says he liked Margaret
Brundage's cover for the December 1935 issue of Weird Tales,
so Howard thought this was a realistic image of Conan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Weird_Tales_December_1935.jpg
This seems too small to me, but like everyone else, my impression
of Conan has been influenced by the Marvel Comics version and
the movies. We must also remember that Howard was writing before
the age of bodybuilding, which altered everyone's image of
strong and muscular men. Another comparison is that the Irish
soldier Paddy Mayne, the most decorated soldier of World War II
was 6'3" and weighed 217 lbs, but was naturally very strong and fast.
Having said that, Bartolomeo Pagano, the original Maciste in the
1914 film Cabiria, the first epic adventure movie, was very muscular:
http://static.episode39.it/artist/15089.jpg
http://images.allocine.fr/medias/nmedia/18/62/47/06/18838412.jpg
http://tinyurl.com/yaeu45s
In his prime, Arnold Schwarzenegger had a competition weight
of 235 lbs and stands 6'1". So that is close to Howard's conception
of Conan, with more muscle mass and bigger biceps. For comparison,
Schwarzenegger is smaller than Thulsa Doom's two barbarian
henchman in the first Conan movie. Rexor was played by ex-football
player Ben Davidson who is 6'8" and weighs 270 lbs, and Thorgrim
was played by Danish strongman Sven Ole Thorsen, who is 6'5"
tall and says he weighed 304 lbs during the shooting of the movie.
* * *
"Conan's height and weight as an adult are subject to speculation -
some estimates make him 6' 6" (2 m) and up to 250 lb (113 kg) -
but extrapolating the growth of the 15-year-old Conan based on
modern data would make him at least 6' 2" (1.88 m) and 216 lbs
(98 kg) at 18. This talies with a comment Howard wrote in another
letter that his crusader character Cormac Fitzgeoffrey is a double
of Conan and that Cormac is 6' 2" and 215 pounds."
http://conan.wikia.com/wiki/Conan
== 23 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 3:40 pm
From: Moriarty
On Nov 30, 4:14 am, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
> On 2009-11-29 05:49:10 -0800, "W. Citoan" <wcit...@NOSPAM-yahoo.com> said:
>
> > Endymion9 wrote:
>
> >> What I see as the error in your premise is that these pirates or
> >> barbarians are "ordinary" men. They would be the swordsmen who had
> >> survived many battles with other pirates, barbarians etc. There
> >> might be a few new recruits, but mainly they would be made up of
> >> survivors who had more than ordinary skill. That's why I related
> >> them to at least alternates on a fencing team. Some of them might be
> >> better than that.
>
> > Okay, if you're discussing the realism of Conan's abilities, then you also
> > need to be realistic about his opponents abilities. History has already
> > shown the above to be an overstatement. A few skilled ex-military
> > maybe, but they survived by preying on the weaker.
>
> I'm still curious as to when REH said Conan was the greatest swordsman
> of the age.
>
> Greatest warrior, perhaps, for his fury and strength, and Howard didn't
> present Conan as without skill. I just don't remember him presenting
> Conan as a supremely-skilled swordsman, as opposed to a very capable
> swordsman who backed it up with power and a near-berserker fury.
The opening passages of "The Scarlet Citadel" had Conan surrounded by
swordsmen and killing them all. The surrounding swordsmen (deceased)
are described by their king as the finest trained swordsmen they had
etc etc.
"Who can take a man-eating tiger alive? By Ishtar, his heel is on the
necks of my finest swordsmen! It took seven years and stacks of gold
to train each, and there they lie, so much kite's meat. Arrows, I
say!"
That certainly seems to back up your recollection of the REH stories.
Although it doesn provide a better example than the one given earlier
from "Queen of the Black Coast" of Conan facing several highly trained
opponents and triumphing.
-Moriarty
== 24 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 3:55 pm
From: Shawn Wilson
On Nov 29, 4:39 pm, "Marko Amnell" <marko.amn...@kolumbus.fi> wrote:
> Conan's height and weight are never given in the original stories and
> this had led to much speculation about his actual size. On the one
> hand, he is described as towering over other people. This has led
> many people to consider him to be 6'6" to 6'8" tall or even taller
> and weighing 260 pounds or more. I said he is about the same size
> as Peter Francisco, who was 6'6" and 280 lbs. So I fall into this
> first group.
>
> But Howard himself said that Conan was a physical double for
> the Norman-Irish adventurer Cormac FitsGeoffrey, who stood
> 6'2" and weighed 215 lbs. Howard also says he liked Margaret
> Brundage's cover for the December 1935 issue of Weird Tales,
> so Howard thought this was a realistic image of Conan:
6'2" and 215 lbs works for me. 6,6 is far too tall
== 25 of 25 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2009 4:14 pm
From: "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Shawn Wilson wrote:
> On Nov 29, 3:46 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>
>>> I think it's pretty clear that as far as Howard was concerned, Conan
>>> had the strength of a very strong man but not 'superhuman' strength.
>>> He was an 18 in D&D terms, not a 20+.
>> Which version of D&D?
>>
>> 3e, I'd put him in the high 20s. Possibly in the low 30s at his peak.
>
>
>
> What? Hell no. THAT would be clearly superhuman.
The raw stat bonuses alone for going to 20th (and by the end of his
career Conan would've been EPIC, not a mere 20th) would take you from 18
to 23. And that's assuming no bonuses from any other sources. He was
blessed by Crom (and at least a couple other gods/beings), which would
likely translate to upped stats.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
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