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Today's topics:
* The Books That Founded D&D - 22 messages, 9 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books/t/8ba57c69243a3499?hl=en
* ine MBA - Three Simple Rules of Passing Online MBA Exam With Ease - 1
messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books/t/9f3e9c986851276f?hl=en
* ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ DUCT CLEANING ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books/t/d2ac2d12053a96d2?hl=en
* A Troubled Thanksgiving 2009 - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books/t/ecdf162170765780?hl=en
* ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ POWER RACK ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books/t/33a03660d2b13216?hl=en
==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Books That Founded D&D
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books/t/8ba57c69243a3499?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 22 ==
Date: Mon, Nov 30 2009 3:55 pm
From: "Arindam Banerjee"
<tbj.blue@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ce85b3ef-bb7c-4f83-bce8-5700e7eb37ea@h40g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 26, 5:28 pm, "Arindam Banerjee" <adda1...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> Arjuna and Ashwatthama (the Kshatriya and the Brahmin) met in battle.
> Their
> weapons would destroy the world, so the Gods interfered. Their Divine
> Wisdom was that Ashwatthama, the beloved son of Dronacharya, would never
> die. But he had to give up his power, which lay in a strange gem embedded
> in
> his head. And Lord Krishna, using all his powers, brought back Parikshit,
> the son of Abhimanyu, back to life. Ashwatthama had uttered a spell, and a
> blade of grass had penetrated the womb of Abhimanyu's widow, killing his
> unborn son. Parikshit would become the ancestor of all the kings of India.
> However, the ancient glory was never rekindled. Certainly the concept of
> dharmayuddha is totally gone, today.
>
Is there any evidence to suggest that the acharyas of the Mahabharat
were brahmins?
AB: Elementary study of the texts, let alone popular knowledge among
illiterate Sanatan Dharmis, has it that Dronacharya and Ashwatthama were
Brahmins, as per their varna or classification relating to
duty/calling/aptitude/status/upbringing. They lived in great poverty, till
Drona got the job of tutoring the princes of Hastinapur. People in my
cultural and genetic position need particular role models, and so for me the
stories with characterisation relating to Parasuram, Drona, Chanakya and
Kalidas serve the purpose, since they were all brahmins. (I had written
about Dronacharya's story in Usenet, some years ago. One may find it with a
bit of google-grouping.) After hearing the lie from Yudhisthira that
Ashwatthama (his son, not the elephant) was dead, Dronacharya was in great
sorrow. Bhima added to it by saying that brahmins had no business to involve
themselves directly in warfare. It was then that Drona laid down his arms,
and went into a yogic trance to liberate himself from life. In that state,
he was killed by Dhrishtyadyumna, who thus served his purpose on earth, to
kill Drona that is. The master/guru of Bhishma, Drona and Karna was the
terrible brahmin Parasuram. Karnam went to study under him with false
pretences - he claimed to be a brahmin. But when a gopher burrowed through
his thighs when his guru was resting with his head on his lap, and Karna did
not flinch, the guru knew the truth. No brahmin could suffer so much pain -
only a kshatriya could.
Sages, rishis, saints, ascetics, monks, hermits, recluses, sadhus,
fakirs etc - all these categories cannot be included into a caste.
Lord Shiva is an ascetic, but not a brahmin.
If they taught hunting and war skills, then they were not bound by
rituals or texts. By definition, then, they lived outside of the caste
system.
AB: When one thinks deeply, studies the correct texts with rigour, and
dedicates ones life and works to the Divine, one may rid oneself of
confusion.
== 2 of 22 ==
Date: Mon, Nov 30 2009 5:13 pm
From: Chris
On Nov 23, 11:35 pm, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>)
wrote:
> In article <1e760f48-ccc1-429d-a504-536917163...@h2g2000vbd.googlegroups.com>,
> Mark Reichert <Mark_Reich...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Nov 23, 2:28 pm, Juho Julkunen <giaot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> In article <7n05f9F3kj7e...@mid.individual.net>, Ted Nolan <tednolan>
> >> (t...@loft.tnolan.com) says...
>
> >> > In article <heelo9$f9...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> >> > Mike Schilling <mscottschill...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >David Johnston wrote:
> >> > >> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:42:42 +0200, "Marko Amnell"
> >> > >> <marko.amn...@kolumbus.fi> wrote:
> >> > >>> A master swordsman can
> >> > >>> defeat many less skilled opponents in combat. To quote
> >> > >>> Miyamoto Musashi in _The Book of Five Rings_:
>
> >> > >>> "If he attains the virtue of the long sword, one man can beat
> >> > >>> ten men.
>
> >> > >> If he's wearing armour and the ten men are untrained peasants.
>
> >> > >None of whom think of sneaking up behind the swordsman and braining
> >> > >him with a rock.
>
> >> > IIRC, that was one of the parts of _Guns Germs & Steel_ that seemed least
> >> > convincing -- that steel made a handful of Spaniards *so* overwhelming that
> >> > the conquest of Latin America was inevitable.
>
> >> You are being too moderate. Spaniard conquest of Latin America was
> >> apparently inevitable since their ancestors settled in Europe.
>
> >> But yeah, taking a fight seriously helps. It also helps if the guys
> >> you're fighting are so hated that lot of the people you run into are
> >> willing to lend a hand.
>
> >It helps even more if they're dropping like flies thanks to you coming
> >from a densely populated disease ridden place, and they not.
>
> Sure, but though I don't have the book to hand, I'm pretty sure he was
> making very strong claims for "steel" even when "germs" had played out.
> And by "very strong" I mean more than struck me as reasonable.
>
> Ted
> --
> ------
> columbiaclosings.com
> What's not in Columbia anymore..
The point of the steel, in the particular instance of the
Conquistadors, was not in the swords but in the armor. The wooden
weapons of their opponents just bounced off.
Chris
== 3 of 22 ==
Date: Mon, Nov 30 2009 9:44 pm
From: "Arindam Banerjee"
"Marko Amnell" <marko.amnell@kolumbus.fi> wrote in message
news:62483c37-70c8-4b44-b1d7-1662775299d8@s19g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 30, 6:07 pm, Juho Julkunen <giaot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[...]
> > > > > In a fight he is a blur that cannot be hit.
> > "The warriors of Xuthal howled like mad wolves. Unaccustomed
> > to battle, they were ridiculously slow and clumsy compared to
> > the tigerish barbarian whose motions were blurs of quickness
> > possible only to steel thews knit to a perfect fighting brain.
> > They floundered and stumbled, hindered by their own numbers;
> > they struck too quick or too soon, and cut only empty air. He
> > was never motionless or in the same place an instant; springing
> > side-stepping, whirling, twisting, he offered a constantly shifting
> > target for their swords, while his own curved blade sang death
> > about their ears."
> >http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Slithering_Shadow/Chapter_III
>
> > So you were not only exaggerating a little. You were flat
> > out wrong. You wanted it to be true that Howard describes
> > Conan moving so fast that no human being could possibly
> > hit him.
>
> Not only are you claiming to read my mind again, you are claiming I
> wrote something I never did.
>
> And feel free to provide an example of a man as strong as
> Conan moving as Conan is descibed to move there.
That's very easy. I can think of many examples but the
best example I can think of is Paddy Mayne. Although
he was 6 foot 3 inches tall and weighed 217 lbs (so he
was about the same size as Muhammad Ali) he was
incredibly fast. He both ran very fast, was very hard to
knock down, and had unbelievably fast reflexes. Yet he
was exceptionally strong, even compared to men of the
same size. Already as a boy, he could drive a golf ball
much further than grown men. He was a boxing champion
and outstanding rugby player. Men who known him
described him as the toughest and strongest man they
had ever met. In addition, he was the most decorated
Allied soldier of World War II, and one of the founders
of the SAS.
My point throughtout this thread is that men like this
really do exist. There are not many of them, but they
exist. Conan is this type of man, as were the historical
examples I have provided in this thread.
If anyone is interested to read more about Paddy Mayne,
I recommend Martin Dillon's excellent book _Rogue Warrior
of the SAS: The Blair Mayne Legend_:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rogue-Warrior-SAS-Blair-Legend/dp/1840187239
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddy_Mayne
The rest of your comments added nothing new so
there is no point in me replying to them.
AB: Hi Marko, when I was a kid I had the privilege of meeting a
professional strong man after seeing his act. As I remember, he was pretty
thin and lithe. He put up an impressive show. Such as lying on a bed of
nails and having a huge guy pounding on an anvil placed on his chest. And
bending a spear with his eyeball.
He told my father that most of his show was just that, a show; but there was
a sure test for real strength. "Take a five paisa coin and bend it with
your fingers". In those days, that coin was made of steel. Later on, it
became a small piece of aluminium, and now it has totally vanished. (note
100 paise make a rupee, and forty+ rupees make a US dollar).
Did Conan ever bend a bit of steel with his fingers? The nearest I get in
Western literature is about Porthos bending the steel bars of his prison,
and thus escaping with d'Artagnan (also taking Mazarin as prisoner). Then
Sherlock Holmes was strong enough to straighten a poker that has just been
twisted into a pretzel.
== 4 of 22 ==
Date: Mon, Nov 30 2009 9:51 pm
From: "Arindam Banerjee"
"Quadibloc" <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in message
news:d504506c-8d75-4121-b17b-d0e7d1a0161d@y10g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 26, 5:28 am, "Arindam Banerjee" <adda1...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> Certainly the concept of
> dharmayuddha is totally gone, today.
- snip -
So, yes: today, war is not a game. It is a serious business, and the
issue is to win.
AB: I so agree. It is a business all right, and the only issue is profit for
the powerful.
- snip -
== 5 of 22 ==
Date: Mon, Nov 30 2009 10:51 pm
From: Steve Hayes
On Tue, 01 Dec 2009 05:51:43 GMT, "Arindam Banerjee" <adda1234@bigpond.com>
wrote:
>
>"Quadibloc" <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in message
>news:d504506c-8d75-4121-b17b-d0e7d1a0161d@y10g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>On Nov 26, 5:28 am, "Arindam Banerjee" <adda1...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> Certainly the concept of
>> dharmayuddha is totally gone, today.
>
>- snip -
>
>So, yes: today, war is not a game. It is a serious business, and the
>issue is to win.
I thought the issue was whether or not to take part.
Once you're in, winning is not an issue, it's a given.
--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
== 6 of 22 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 1 2009 5:00 am
From: "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Dec 2009 05:51:43 GMT, "Arindam Banerjee" <adda1234@bigpond.com>
> wrote:
>
>> "Quadibloc" <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in message
>> news:d504506c-8d75-4121-b17b-d0e7d1a0161d@y10g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>> On Nov 26, 5:28 am, "Arindam Banerjee" <adda1...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>> Certainly the concept of
>>> dharmayuddha is totally gone, today.
>> - snip -
>>
>> So, yes: today, war is not a game. It is a serious business, and the
>> issue is to win.
>
> I thought the issue was whether or not to take part.
>
> Once you're in, winning is not an issue, it's a given.
The only way to win is not to play.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
== 7 of 22 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 1 2009 6:30 am
From: Bill Snyder
On Tue, 01 Dec 2009 05:44:11 GMT, "Arindam Banerjee"
<adda1234@bigpond.com> wrote:
>Did Conan ever bend a bit of steel with his fingers? The nearest I get in
>Western literature is about Porthos bending the steel bars of his prison,
>and thus escaping with d'Artagnan (also taking Mazarin as prisoner). Then
>Sherlock Holmes was strong enough to straighten a poker that has just been
>twisted into a pretzel.
Fireplace pokers aren't all *that* hard to bend; I've done it
inadvertently by prying on a log several times. I don't think
they're much more than cast iron to begin with; and any that are
will stop being tempered after they've been in and out of the fire
a few times.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
== 8 of 22 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 1 2009 7:21 am
From: "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Bill Snyder wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Dec 2009 05:44:11 GMT, "Arindam Banerjee"
> <adda1234@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>> Did Conan ever bend a bit of steel with his fingers? The nearest I get in
>> Western literature is about Porthos bending the steel bars of his prison,
>> and thus escaping with d'Artagnan (also taking Mazarin as prisoner). Then
>> Sherlock Holmes was strong enough to straighten a poker that has just been
>> twisted into a pretzel.
>
> Fireplace pokers aren't all *that* hard to bend; I've done it
> inadvertently by prying on a log several times. I don't think
> they're much more than cast iron to begin with; and any that are
> will stop being tempered after they've been in and out of the fire
> a few times.
>
Actually, it depends on the poker. There's some which were made of
pretty thick steel.
Though the impressive bit is the STRAIGHTENING of the poker. It's much
easier to bend it than straighten, if by straighten Watson really meant
"straight enough that it didn't look as though it had been bent".
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
== 9 of 22 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 1 2009 7:33 am
From: Marko Amnell
On Dec 1, 7:44 am, "Arindam Banerjee" <adda1...@bigpond.com> wrote:
[...]
> AB: Hi Marko, when I was a kid I had the privilege of meeting a
> professional strong man after seeing his act. As I remember, he was pretty
> thin and lithe. He put up an impressive show. Such as lying on a bed of
> nails and having a huge guy pounding on an anvil placed on his chest. And
> bending a spear with his eyeball.
> He told my father that most of his show was just that, a show; but there was
> a sure test for real strength. "Take a five paisa coin and bend it with
> your fingers". In those days, that coin was made of steel. Later on, it
> became a small piece of aluminium, and now it has totally vanished. (note
> 100 paise make a rupee, and forty+ rupees make a US dollar).
> Did Conan ever bend a bit of steel with his fingers?
No, not in any of the original stories by Robert E. Howard.
Though obviously if he was able to strangle Baal-pteor his
fingers must have incredibly strong.
> The nearest I get in
> Western literature is about Porthos bending the steel bars of his prison,
> and thus escaping with d'Artagnan (also taking Mazarin as prisoner). Then
> Sherlock Holmes was strong enough to straighten a poker that has just been
> twisted into a pretzel.
== 10 of 22 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 1 2009 7:44 am
From: Bill Snyder
On Tue, 01 Dec 2009 10:21:47 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>Bill Snyder wrote:
>> On Tue, 01 Dec 2009 05:44:11 GMT, "Arindam Banerjee"
>> <adda1234@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Did Conan ever bend a bit of steel with his fingers? The nearest I get in
>>> Western literature is about Porthos bending the steel bars of his prison,
>>> and thus escaping with d'Artagnan (also taking Mazarin as prisoner). Then
>>> Sherlock Holmes was strong enough to straighten a poker that has just been
>>> twisted into a pretzel.
>>
>> Fireplace pokers aren't all *that* hard to bend; I've done it
>> inadvertently by prying on a log several times. I don't think
>> they're much more than cast iron to begin with; and any that are
>> will stop being tempered after they've been in and out of the fire
>> a few times.
>>
>
> Actually, it depends on the poker. There's some which were made of
>pretty thick steel.
Well, OK. I probably should have specified that the one I'm
thinking of actually dates (I think) back to somewhere in the
Victorian/Edwardian era.
> Though the impressive bit is the STRAIGHTENING of the poker. It's much
>easier to bend it than straighten, if by straighten Watson really meant
>"straight enough that it didn't look as though it had been bent".
I suspect that getting the visible kinks *all* the way out would
be just plain impossible for anything short of a hydraulic press.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
== 11 of 22 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 1 2009 7:49 am
From: "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Bill Snyder wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Dec 2009 10:21:47 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> Bill Snyder wrote:
>>> On Tue, 01 Dec 2009 05:44:11 GMT, "Arindam Banerjee"
>>> <adda1234@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Did Conan ever bend a bit of steel with his fingers? The nearest I get in
>>>> Western literature is about Porthos bending the steel bars of his prison,
>>>> and thus escaping with d'Artagnan (also taking Mazarin as prisoner). Then
>>>> Sherlock Holmes was strong enough to straighten a poker that has just been
>>>> twisted into a pretzel.
>>> Fireplace pokers aren't all *that* hard to bend; I've done it
>>> inadvertently by prying on a log several times. I don't think
>>> they're much more than cast iron to begin with; and any that are
>>> will stop being tempered after they've been in and out of the fire
>>> a few times.
>>>
>> Actually, it depends on the poker. There's some which were made of
>> pretty thick steel.
>
> Well, OK. I probably should have specified that the one I'm
> thinking of actually dates (I think) back to somewhere in the
> Victorian/Edwardian era.
>
>> Though the impressive bit is the STRAIGHTENING of the poker. It's much
>> easier to bend it than straighten, if by straighten Watson really meant
>> "straight enough that it didn't look as though it had been bent".
>
> I suspect that getting the visible kinks *all* the way out would
> be just plain impossible for anything short of a hydraulic press.
>
Holmes was an Amberite. :)
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
== 12 of 22 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 1 2009 8:11 am
From: "tbj.blue@yahoo.com"
On Dec 1, 4:55 am, "Arindam Banerjee" <adda1...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> <tbj.b...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:ce85b3ef-bb7c-4f83-bce8-5700e7eb37ea@h40g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 26, 5:28 pm, "Arindam Banerjee" <adda1...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> > Arjuna and Ashwatthama (the Kshatriya and the Brahmin) met in battle.
> > Their
> > weapons would destroy the world, so the Gods interfered. Their Divine
> > Wisdom was that Ashwatthama, the beloved son of Dronacharya, would never
> > die. But he had to give up his power, which lay in a strange gem embedded
> > in
> > his head. And Lord Krishna, using all his powers, brought back Parikshit,
> > the son of Abhimanyu, back to life. Ashwatthama had uttered a spell, and a
> > blade of grass had penetrated the womb of Abhimanyu's widow, killing his
> > unborn son. Parikshit would become the ancestor of all the kings of India.
> > However, the ancient glory was never rekindled. Certainly the concept of
> > dharmayuddha is totally gone, today.
>
> Is there any evidence to suggest that the acharyas of the Mahabharat
> were brahmins?
>
> AB: Elementary study of the texts, let alone popular knowledge among
> illiterate Sanatan Dharmis, has it that Dronacharya and Ashwatthama were
> Brahmins, as per their varna or classification relating to
> duty/calling/aptitude/status/upbringing. They lived in great poverty, till
> Drona got the job of tutoring the princes of Hastinapur. People in my
> cultural and genetic position need particular role models, and so for me the
> stories with characterisation relating to Parasuram, Drona, Chanakya and
> Kalidas serve the purpose, since they were all brahmins. (I had written
> about Dronacharya's story in Usenet, some years ago. One may find it with a
> bit of google-grouping.) After hearing the lie from Yudhisthira that
> Ashwatthama (his son, not the elephant) was dead, Dronacharya was in great
> sorrow. Bhima added to it by saying that brahmins had no business to involve
> themselves directly in warfare. It was then that Drona laid down his arms,
> and went into a yogic trance to liberate himself from life. In that state,
> he was killed by Dhrishtyadyumna, who thus served his purpose on earth, to
> kill Drona that is. The master/guru of Bhishma, Drona and Karna was the
> terrible brahmin Parasuram. Karnam went to study under him with false
> pretences - he claimed to be a brahmin. But when a gopher burrowed through
> his thighs when his guru was resting with his head on his lap, and Karna did
> not flinch, the guru knew the truth. No brahmin could suffer so much pain -
> only a kshatriya could.
>
> Sages, rishis, saints, ascetics, monks, hermits, recluses, sadhus,
> fakirs etc - all these categories cannot be included into a caste.
> Lord Shiva is an ascetic, but not a brahmin.
> If they taught hunting and war skills, then they were not bound by
> rituals or texts. By definition, then, they lived outside of the caste
> system.
>
> AB: When one thinks deeply, studies the correct texts with rigour, and
> dedicates ones life and works to the Divine, one may rid oneself of
> confusion.
Drona did not study texts, and did not dedicate life to the Divine. He
studied war and associated materialism. If he could be called a
brahmin, then the whole world is brahmin.
If Drona was a brahmin, then so were Rommel, MacArthur and Eisenhower.
Kalidas was an uneducated woodworker.
Parasuram clearly is imaginary without any historical plausibility.
The "angry and powerful sage" theme is repeated many times in Indian
texts but never so extravagantly decorated as with Parasuram.
== 13 of 22 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 1 2009 8:44 am
From: Kurt Busiek
On 2009-12-01 07:33:52 -0800, Marko Amnell <marko.amnell@kolumbus.fi> said:
> On Dec 1, 7:44 am, "Arindam Banerjee" <adda1...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> AB: Hi Marko, when I was a kid I had the privilege of meeting a
>> professional strong man after seeing his act. As I remember, he was
>> pretty thin and lithe. He put up an impressive show. Such as lying on
>> a bed of nails and having a huge guy pounding on an anvil placed on
>> his chest. And bending a spear with his eyeball. He told my father that
>> most of his show was just that, a show; but there was a sure test for real
>> strength. "Take a five paisa coin and bend it with your fingers". In those
>> days, that coin was made of steel. Later on, it became a small piece
>> of aluminium, and now it has totally vanished. (note 100 paise make a
>> rupee, and forty+ rupees make a US dollar). Did Conan ever bend a
>> bit of steel with his fingers?
>
> No, not in any of the original stories by Robert E. Howard.
> Though obviously if he was able to strangle Baal-pteor his
> fingers must have incredibly strong.
Very strong. Though technically, he didn't strangle Ball-pteor. He
might have, had he continued, but he broke his neck, which speaks to
even greater hand strength, I'd say.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
== 14 of 22 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 1 2009 9:11 am
From: Marko Amnell
On Dec 1, 6:44 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
> On 2009-12-01 07:33:52 -0800, Marko Amnell <marko.amn...@kolumbus.fi> said:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 1, 7:44 am, "Arindam Banerjee" <adda1...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> > [...]
>
> >> AB: Hi Marko, when I was a kid I had the privilege of meeting a
> >> professional strong man after seeing his act. As I remember, he was
> >> pretty thin and lithe. He put up an impressive show. Such as lying on
> >> a bed of nails and having a huge guy pounding on an anvil placed on
> >> his chest. And bending a spear with his eyeball. He told my father that
> >> most of his show was just that, a show; but there was a sure test for real
> >> strength. "Take a five paisa coin and bend it with your fingers". In those
> >> days, that coin was made of steel. Later on, it became a small piece
> >> of aluminium, and now it has totally vanished. (note 100 paise make a
> >> rupee, and forty+ rupees make a US dollar). Did Conan ever bend a
> >> bit of steel with his fingers?
>
> > No, not in any of the original stories by Robert E. Howard.
> > Though obviously if he was able to strangle Baal-pteor his
> > fingers must have incredibly strong.
>
> Very strong. Though technically, he didn't strangle Ball-pteor. He
> might have, had he continued, but he broke his neck, which speaks to
> even greater hand strength, I'd say.
Fair enough. But by that time, Baal-pteor was desperate and
had lost a lot of strength because he was being suffocated.
Although I am getting bored of the debate about whether
Conan's abilities were superhuman or not, here is one
final comment.
I can meet you and Juho Julkunen half-way and concede
that Conan's strength as a primal barbarian may in certain
respects exceed maximum human strength here on planet
earth. And here is my reason. I did not like Howard's
comment that the Aesir and Vanir had descended from
hairy apes within the last few tens of thousands of years
(or perhaps in just the last 10,000 years?). This is biologically
incorrect, of course, for us on planet earth, since homo sapiens
has been virtually unchanged for the last 100,000 years or so.
OK, Howard was no expert on evolutionary biology and wasn't
even university educated. Nevertheless, it's an odd fact about
these northern barbarians. It means that in some sense the
Aesir and Vanir are still very close to being hairy apes although
they look like ordinary human beings on the surface. The strength
of a gorilla of course exceeds human strength by a great deal.
I am not sure whether this is just a result of Howard's lack of
knowledge of human evolution or he purposefully meant barbarians
in his Hyborian Age to have strength that exceeds ordinary human
strength because they are so close to being wild hairy apes.
Howard was not a really rational person. He said somewhere
that he believed in reincarnation and that he believed he was
an "old soul" who had thus existed in many earlier lives. As
an atheistic positivist who has a scientific worldview, I did
not like these aspects of Howard way of seeing the world.
Lovecraft, on the other hand, was a strict materialist, which
came as a surprise to some people because of the magical
elements in his fiction.
I really don't care if I am wrong about Conan's abilities not
being superhuman. I do think that it is very easy to
exaggerate his strength and that the stories are more
exciting if one thinks of Conan as being just a very strong
and fast man who is a great warrior. If you start to think of
him as a superman, his achievements seem less impressive
and the stories more cartoonish.
== 15 of 22 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 1 2009 9:46 am
From: Kurt Busiek
On 2009-12-01 09:11:47 -0800, Marko Amnell <marko.amnell@kolumbus.fi> said:
> I can meet you and Juho Julkunen half-way and concede
> that Conan's strength as a primal barbarian may in certain
> respects exceed maximum human strength here on planet
> earth.
That's not actually half-way -- that's pretty much meeting us all the
way, at least for my position. But I accept!
I don't actually think of Conan as superhuman -- in his own context, as
I've noted a few times. I think he's a bit superhuman by real-world
standards, but he's not occupying a world that's limited by real-world
standards. By pulp standards, by the standards of Howard's
imagination, he's as strong as a man can get, and that's what matters.
Howard didn't write him as superhuman -- he wrote him as peak human in
a setting where "peak human" is simply a bit higher than it is here in
the real world.
Similarly, I don't think of Batman as super-powered, but I have to
admit that some of what he does in the comics is not humanly possible.
In his world, though, it's within human range. Fantastic world,
different rules.
> I really don't care if I am wrong about Conan's abilities not
> being superhuman. I do think that it is very easy to
> exaggerate his strength and that the stories are more
> exciting if one thinks of Conan as being just a very strong
> and fast man who is a great warrior. If you start to think of
> him as a superman, his achievements seem less impressive
> and the stories more cartoonish.
I agree. But as noted, I don't think he's superhuman in context. He's
superhuman by our real-world scale, but not by Hyborian scale.
It doesn't bother me if the Hyborian world has a different scale for
these things -- they have Lurkers From Outside and yuetshi and shamans
who talk to animals and serpent-gods, after all. They've got their own
rules.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
== 16 of 22 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 1 2009 10:39 am
From: Marko Amnell
On Dec 1, 7:46 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
> On 2009-12-01 09:11:47 -0800, Marko Amnell <marko.amn...@kolumbus.fi> said:
>
> > I can meet you and Juho Julkunen half-way and concede
> > that Conan's strength as a primal barbarian may in certain
> > respects exceed maximum human strength here on planet
> > earth.
>
> That's not actually half-way -- that's pretty much meeting us all the
> way, at least for my position. But I accept!
>
> I don't actually think of Conan as superhuman -- in his own context, as
> I've noted a few times. I think he's a bit superhuman by real-world
> standards, but he's not occupying a world that's limited by real-world
> standards. By pulp standards, by the standards of Howard's
> imagination, he's as strong as a man can get, and that's what matters.
> Howard didn't write him as superhuman -- he wrote him as peak human in
> a setting where "peak human" is simply a bit higher than it is here in
> the real world.
>
> Similarly, I don't think of Batman as super-powered, but I have to
> admit that some of what he does in the comics is not humanly possible.
> In his world, though, it's within human range. Fantastic world,
> different rules.
>
> > I really don't care if I am wrong about Conan's abilities not
> > being superhuman. I do think that it is very easy to
> > exaggerate his strength and that the stories are more
> > exciting if one thinks of Conan as being just a very strong
> > and fast man who is a great warrior. If you start to think of
> > him as a superman, his achievements seem less impressive
> > and the stories more cartoonish.
>
> I agree. But as noted, I don't think he's superhuman in context. He's
> superhuman by our real-world scale, but not by Hyborian scale.
>
> It doesn't bother me if the Hyborian world has a different scale for
> these things -- they have Lurkers From Outside and yuetshi and shamans
> who talk to animals and serpent-gods, after all. They've got their own
> rules.
Umm I dunno. To me, it does kind of reduce the
stature of Conan's achievements if you think of him,
not as a real human being with all the physical
limitations of human beings, but as, well, half-man
and half-gorilla....
== 17 of 22 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 1 2009 11:25 am
From: Kurt Busiek
On 2009-12-01 10:39:41 -0800, Marko Amnell <marko.amnell@kolumbus.fi> said:
> On Dec 1, 7:46 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
>> I agree. But as noted, I don't think he's superhuman in context. He's
>> superhuman by our real-world scale, but not by Hyborian scale.
>>
>> It doesn't bother me if the Hyborian world has a different scale for
>> these things -- they have Lurkers From Outside and yuetshi and shamans
>> who talk to animals and serpent-gods, after all. They've got their own
>> rules.
>
> Umm I dunno. To me, it does kind of reduce the
> stature of Conan's achievements if you think of him,
> not as a real human being with all the physical
> limitations of human beings, but as, well, half-man
> and half-gorilla....
I don't think you're reading what I'm saying, Marko.
I don't think of him as superhuman. Or half-gorilla. Or any of that.
I think the rules of his universe are simply different from ours. He
can do things humans in our universe can't because his universe had a
different yardstick.
Nothing in that requires thinking of him as half-gorilla. It just
means that in Robert E. Howard's imaginary world, the scale is
different, because the limits are set by Howard, not by reality.
You're the guy who worked out a rationale by which the Aesir and Vanir
are still part-ape, not me. I simply think Howard's imagination
exceeded reality, and there's nothing wrong with that.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
== 18 of 22 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 1 2009 11:46 am
From: "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Marko Amnell wrote:
> Umm I dunno. To me, it does kind of reduce the
> stature of Conan's achievements if you think of him,
> not as a real human being with all the physical
> limitations of human beings, but as, well, half-man
> and half-gorilla....
>
But that's not Kurt's position. He's saying that Conan comes from a
FICTIONAL world where Men are MEN, not the puny lesser breeds of these
latter days. For his era, he was not "superhuman". For OUR era, he'd be
superhuman, if you could translate his feats directly into the real
world. He exists in a pulp fiction universe, just as does The Shadow and
others.
This is an ancient tradition -- back in the days of ancient Greece, the
stories of people like Herakles (Hercules), the Argonauts, etc., were
stories that took place in a Heroic Age when men were bigger, stronger,
taller, wiser, etc. Tolkien's Middle-Earth has this in spades; some of
the Elven Warriors of the First Age would have been able to face down
Sauron himself in single combat and kick his glowy-eyed ass.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
== 19 of 22 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 1 2009 12:01 pm
From: Kurt Busiek
On 2009-12-01 11:46:27 -0800, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> said:
> Marko Amnell wrote:
>
>> Umm I dunno. To me, it does kind of reduce the
>> stature of Conan's achievements if you think of him,
>> not as a real human being with all the physical
>> limitations of human beings, but as, well, half-man
>> and half-gorilla....
>>
>
> But that's not Kurt's position. He's saying that Conan comes from a
> FICTIONAL world where Men are MEN, not the puny lesser breeds of these
> latter days.
Heck, I'm not even saying that Conan is superhuman by the standards of,
say, one of REH's Sailor Steve Holland stories.
I'm not saying Howard intentionally created a world where men were
stronger, back in the day. I'm simply saying it's a fictional world,
with fictional standards, created by REH's imagination. Conan's as
strong as REH imagines a man can get, which says nothing about whether
men in the present day are weaker. REH may well have thought a
supremely strong man in 1928 could have broken the neck of a bull by
choking it and twisting, at age 14.
It's Howard's world. His treatment of history, evolution, genetic
drift don't match up with our world, so his approach to human
capability doesn't have to either.
There's no need to create a relationship between the Hyborian Age and
the real world, some explanation for why things changed. The Hyborian
Age is fictional. It didn't really happen, so it doesn't need a
rationale for why things are different there than here. When REH wrote
stories set in the present day, he imagined the standards for those,
too.
So essentially, a wizard did it.
A wizard in Cross Plains.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
== 20 of 22 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 1 2009 12:21 pm
From: pmfan57
On Nov 23, 3:28 pm, Juho Julkunen <giaot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <7n05f9F3kj7e...@mid.individual.net>, Ted Nolan <tednolan>
> But yeah, taking a fight seriously helps. It also helps if the guys
> you're fighting are so hated that lot of the people you run into are
> willing to lend a hand.
>
> --
> Juho Julkunen- Hide quoted text -
That was certainly true in Mexico, where the surrounding peoples hated
the Aztecs. Was it the same in Peru? I can't remember.
== 21 of 22 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 1 2009 12:23 pm
From: pmfan57
On Dec 1, 3:21 pm, pmfan57 <jwrag...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 23, 3:28 pm, Juho Julkunen <giaot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <7n05f9F3kj7e...@mid.individual.net>, Ted Nolan <tednolan>
> > But yeah, taking a fight seriously helps. It also helps if the guys
> > you're fighting are so hated that lot of the people you run into are
> > willing to lend a hand.
>
> > --
> > Juho Julkunen- Hide quoted text -
>
> That was certainly true in Mexico, where the surrounding peoples hated
> the Aztecs. Was it the same in Peru? I can't remember.
A quick wiki check confirms that it was true with regard to the
conquest of the Inca empire as well.
== 22 of 22 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 1 2009 2:15 pm
From: Marko Amnell
On Dec 1, 9:25 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
> On 2009-12-01 10:39:41 -0800, Marko Amnell <marko.amn...@kolumbus.fi> said:
>
> > On Dec 1, 7:46 pm, Kurt Busiek <k...@busiek.com> wrote:
> >> I agree. But as noted, I don't think he's superhuman in context. He's
> >> superhuman by our real-world scale, but not by Hyborian scale.
>
> >> It doesn't bother me if the Hyborian world has a different scale for
> >> these things -- they have Lurkers From Outside and yuetshi and shamans
> >> who talk to animals and serpent-gods, after all. They've got their own
> >> rules.
>
> > Umm I dunno. To me, it does kind of reduce the
> > stature of Conan's achievements if you think of him,
> > not as a real human being with all the physical
> > limitations of human beings, but as, well, half-man
> > and half-gorilla....
>
> I don't think you're reading what I'm saying, Marko.
>
> I don't think of him as superhuman. Or half-gorilla. Or any of that.
> I think the rules of his universe are simply different from ours. He
> can do things humans in our universe can't because his universe had a
> different yardstick.
>
> Nothing in that requires thinking of him as half-gorilla. It just
> means that in Robert E. Howard's imaginary world, the scale is
> different, because the limits are set by Howard, not by reality.
Sure, you can look at it that way. The writer or artist has
the right to create a self-contained world with its own
laws of nature and so on. But Howard did not create a
world that was totally separated from our own like, say,
Tolkien did. The Hyborean Age is described as part of the
prehistory of our own world.
I didn't mean the phrase "half-gorilla" literally. But as you
say yourself, evolution and genetic drift work differently
in Howard's imaginary prehistory. Here are the passages
I was thinking of from Howard's essay "The Hyborean Age".
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Hyborian_Age
Howard writes that after the fall the Thurian civilization
(the setting for the Kull of Atlantis stories:):
"To the Continental kingdom of the Atlanteans, from
sunken areas, swarmed myriads of beasts and
savages -- ape-men and apes."
And at the same time:
"At the time of the Cataclysm, a band of savages, whose
development was not much above that of the Neanderthal,
fled to the north to escape destruction. They found the snow-
countries inhabited only by a species of ferocious snow-apes -
huge shaggy white animals, apparently native to that
climate. These they fought and drove beyond the Arctic
circle, to perish, as the savages thought."
But these shaggy snow-apes did not perish, but in fact
evolved first into ape-men, and then into the Aesir and Vanir.
So only a couple of thousand years later, these snow-apes
had evolved:
"And already the northern tribes [of the Hyboreans] are beginning
to be harried by gigantic blond savages, not much more
advanced than ape-men."
And one thousand years after that:
"In the north, golden-haired, blue-eyed barbarians, descendants
of the blond arctic savages, have driven the remaining Hyborean
tribes out of the snow countries, except the ancient kingdom
of Hyberborea, which resists their onslaught. Their country is
called Nordheim, and they are divided into the red-haired
Vanir of Vanaheim, and the yellow-haired Aesir of Asgard."
So within a few thousand years, shaggy snow-apes evolved
into men, the Vanir and Aesir. The Hyboreans, including Conan,
apparently did not evolve from apes this quickly, but they did
evolve from ape-men not much more advanced than
Neanderthals during the same period of time.
Well, there are no shaggy snow-apes in the real world, but
they presumably were similar to gorillas. If the Aesir and Vanir
evolved from snow-apes this quickly, can we assume that
they had lost all traces of their ape heritage? I don't think so.
I think what Howard intends by describing this history is that
much of the ferocity and strength of the Vanir and Aesir
can be attributed to the fact that they were ferocious
snow-apes only a few thousand years before. In some
sense these northern barbarians are closer to apes than
other men. Similarly, part of Conan's strength and ferocity
can be attributed to his recent ape-men ancestors. So
I should have called Conan "half-man, half-ape-man" while
the Vanir and Aesir are "half-man, half snow-ape."
Or maybe not. It isn't really clear what if anything this
history means, and Howard never explains any of it.
You choose to simply let it all be and just say that the
artist has the righ to create a self-contained world.
But this imaginary history does also explain how
Howard portrays barbarians in his stories.
> You're the guy who worked out a rationale by which the Aesir and Vanir
> are still part-ape, not me. I simply think Howard's imagination
> exceeded reality, and there's nothing wrong with that.
==============================================================================
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http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books/t/9f3e9c986851276f?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Nov 30 2009 11:28 pm
From: ashokrose ashokrose
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TOPIC: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ DUCT CLEANING ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books/t/d2ac2d12053a96d2?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 1 2009 5:37 am
From: Freda Corcoran
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: A Troubled Thanksgiving 2009
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books/t/ecdf162170765780?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 1 2009 7:04 am
From: MarkA
On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 20:20:31 -0800, tj wrote:
>
> A Troubled Thanksgiving 2009
>
> Tuesday, November 24, 2009
>
> Dennis Prager
>
>
> But those of us who love America and its unique value system don't want
> either America or its value system transformed. The former can always be
> improved, but should never be transformed.
This is an interesting point. Would it be a bad thing for America to be
"transformed"? Transformed into what? Is it good to have an economic
system whereby the top executives of Enron, already making millions of
dollars a year, can rob their wage-earning employees of their entire
life's savings just to make their own nest eggs fatter? I'm all
in favor of business success and entrepreneurship, but history shows that
the less restrictions and regulations there are on business, the more the
rich eat the poor. Perhaps instead of putting so much emphasis on "free
enterprise", we might put a little more on protecting the working class
from the excesses of the ruling class. I think most former Enron
employees would agree.
>
> Every element of this is being transformed, perhaps permanently. The
> American economy and/or its health system may be fatally damaged if
> either the House or Senate health care bill is passed. America will
> descend under a mountain of debt that may permanently undermine the
> power of the dollar.
The health care system is already fatally damaged. Anyone who believes
that it can continue to grow in the directions it is already is nuts. It
would be nice to have a comprehensive rethinking of the entire system from
the ground up, but this is America, and the best we can realistically hope
for is more bandaids and duct tape.
>
> The idea that people should first take care of themselves, then their
> family, then their neighbors and then other nations is also an American
> aberration. The norm, advocated by those in power on Thanksgiving 2009,
> is to want to be taken care of by the state, have the state take care of
> everyone else and abandon other countries (such as Afghanistan) to their
> fate, just as other nations are willing to do.
>
There is a difference between providing a "safety net", and having people
"taken care of by the state". There is no denying that some will abuse
the safety net, but that is a poor argument for not having a strong one.
--
MarkA
Keeper of Things Put There Only Just The Night Before
About eight o'clock
==============================================================================
TOPIC: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ POWER RACK ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books/t/33a03660d2b13216?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 1 2009 12:24 pm
From: Staci DENLEY
.
~~~***~~~
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click here to enter:
>>> http://web-paradise.cn/pages/power-rack <<<
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